ARGH!!! Calvinism makes me furious!!!
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
- Start date
Hi Sozo,Originally posted by Sozo
Let's see :think: ... if they are Calvinists, and they "believe" something other than what the fundementals of Calvinism "teaches", then God must have predestined them to not understand the very thing that He has done to save them.
So how then can they be saved?
If you already knew what they believe, why did you bother asking?
Fact is, not everyone here who calls him/herself a Calvinist accurately espouses what "the fundamentals of Calvinism" teaches. Hence my question.
Jim
Are you asking me that question? I thought you were addressing it to Calvinists. I don't claim to be a Calvinist. That's why I asked you, "Since you mention "fundamental Calvinist doctrine," are you interested in what fundamental Calvinist doctrine teaches on this issue, or are you interested in what our Calvinist "friends" believe on this issue?"
Jim
Not a problem, 1Way. I'll attend to your posts when I have a larger block of time with which to give them due attention. Thanks for the reminders.Originally posted by 1Way
Oh boy, I haven't put that much of a backlog against anyone in years.
Jim you are 4 rather large posts behind... I should appologize for ribbing you, too much pressure, don't mean to be rude.
Jim
1Way
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Sozo - Your question is interesting. From what I recall, most Calvinists would tend to have God follow up the granting of saving faith --- with the new creation slash sanctification bit (like standard Christian doctrine) so that they will not only be saved, but also act like it to some extent. And remember, according to them, God has irresistible grace working for Him, you can not thwart His will. If God choose that the preacher is going to hell, no matter what he is going to hell, if the gang member drug dealer is going to heaven, he's going there no matter what.
But what about the vast majority of pew sitting believers out there? They may have a common or average, even a somewhat nominal faith in God. How would they really know, how can they become assured in their salvation when it is not them in the least, plus, on top of that, the odds are likely that many church members are going to hell instead of heaven! Talk about a serious eye opener. God is the one who does the choosing, ,,, so, do you feel lucky?
But what about the vast majority of pew sitting believers out there? They may have a common or average, even a somewhat nominal faith in God. How would they really know, how can they become assured in their salvation when it is not them in the least, plus, on top of that, the odds are likely that many church members are going to hell instead of heaven! Talk about a serious eye opener. God is the one who does the choosing, ,,, so, do you feel lucky?
In Jesus' day, He warned that there would be those who cast out devils in His name, prophesy in His name, and perform many miracles in His name. Yet, to them, He will say, "I never knew you."
We could apply these principles to our contemporary environment:
Not everyone who says to Him, 'Lord, Lord,' will jointly sit with Christ on the Father's throne in the upon-heavens, but he who does the will of His Father who is in heaven. Many will say to Him on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not preach the gospel in Your name, and in Your name win thousands to salvation, and in Your name staunchly defend the faith and regularly attend church? And Jesus will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
Jim
We could apply these principles to our contemporary environment:
Not everyone who says to Him, 'Lord, Lord,' will jointly sit with Christ on the Father's throne in the upon-heavens, but he who does the will of His Father who is in heaven. Many will say to Him on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not preach the gospel in Your name, and in Your name win thousands to salvation, and in Your name staunchly defend the faith and regularly attend church? And Jesus will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
Jim
Jim, I guess I would be considered an "open theist".
In regard to this topic.... what would you call yourself?
Knight, I would say that I have a Calvinistic view of the atonement. That is where my association with the term ends. Just as an Open Theist might say he has an Arminian view of the atonement, and yet not call himself an Arminian.
I also consider myself a 15-pointer, because I apply each of the 5-points of Calvinism to each of 3 households of God's elect (elect Israel, elect of the nations, and the Body of Christ).
Thanks for the question.
Jim