ARGH!!! Calvinism makes me furious!!!

[Nathon Detroit]

You believe God caused a storm, but didn't cause a storm. That's your contridiction. :duh:

Z Man... are you kidding???

I believe God caused A storm but doesn't necessarily cause ALL storms.

Where is the contradiction?

I want to hear from anyone else who thinks there is a contradiction in that statement. If so, where?

 

[Z Man]

Knight,

• You believe God caused a worldwide flood through torrentous rain storms, but He did not cause a hurricane?
  
  

  I think the god you are thinking of is named: Grothar, God of the Weather or possibly Poseidon, god of water.

  And yet, you contradict yourself because you believe God caused the flood, but not a hurricane, and then you mock me by declaring I believe in Poseidon or some other pagan god who controls the weather.
  
  
  To the community of this website:
  
  **WARNING**: KNIGHT DOES NOT BELIEVE GOD IS IN CONTROL OF THE WEATHER!!!
  
  Genesis 2:4-7
  This is the history of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens, before any plant of the field was in the earth and before any herb of the field had grown. For the Lord God had not caused it to rain on the earth...
  
  Exodus 9:18
  Behold, tomorrow about this time I, the Lord, will cause very heavy hail to rain down, such as has not been in Egypt since its founding until now.
  
  De 28:24
  The Lord will change the rain of your land to powder and dust; from the heaven it shall come down on you until you are destroyed.
  
  1Samuel 12:18
  So Samuel called to the Lord, and the Lord sent thunder and rain that day; and all the people greatly feared the Lord and Samuel.

• Why don't you understand that God not only brings calamity to the wicked, but to the righteous as well?
  
  The disciples were as ignorant as you are, and they asked Jesus what the blind man did to deserve to be born that way. Jesus tells them it wasn't what the man did that led God to make Him blind; it was what God wanted. Again, in Luke 13, the disciples, being ignorant, thought the tower that fell on the men in Shiloam was a pass of judgment from God upon those killed for their sins. But Jesus, again, assures them that they were no more wicked than anyone else and God has spared them.
  
  The rain falls on the just and the unjust Knight. God creates calamity for the wicked and just alike.

• I've never seen someone get sick in the Bible where God wasn't the primary cause. Do you have Biblical evidence that suggests God WAS NOT the primary cause of an illness?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Knight,

• You believe God caused a worldwide flood through torrentous rain storms, but He did not cause a hurricane?
  
  
  
  
  
  And yet, you contradict yourself because you believe God caused the flood, but not a hurricane, and then you mock me by declaring I believe in Poseidon or some other pagan god who controls the weather.
  
  
  
  
  
  To the community of this website:
  
  
  
  **WARNING**: KNIGHT DOES NOT BELIEVE GOD IS IN CONTROL OF THE WEATHER!!!
  
  
  
  Genesis 2:4-7
  
  This is the history of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens, before any plant of the field was in the earth and before any herb of the field had grown. For the Lord God had not caused it to rain on the earth...
  
  
  
  Exodus 9:18
  
  Behold, tomorrow about this time I, the Lord, will cause very heavy hail to rain down, such as has not been in Egypt since its founding until now.
  
  
  
  De 28:24
  
  The Lord will change the rain of your land to powder and dust; from the heaven it shall come down on you until you are destroyed.
  
  
  
  1Samuel 12:18
  
  So Samuel called to the Lord, and the Lord sent thunder and rain that day; and all the people greatly feared the Lord and Samuel.

• Why don't you understand that God not only brings calamity to the wicked, but to the righteous as well?
  
  
  
  The disciples were as ignorant as you are, and they asked Jesus what the blind man did to deserve to be born that way. Jesus tells them it wasn't what the man did that led God to make Him blind; it was what God wanted. Again, in Luke 13, the disciples, being ignorant, thought the tower that fell on the men in Shiloam was a pass of judgment from God upon those killed for their sins. But Jesus, again, assures them that they were no more wicked than anyone else and God has spared them.
  
  
  
  The rain falls on the just and the unjust Knight. God creates calamity for the wicked and just alike.

• I've never seen someone get sick in the Bible where God wasn't the primary cause. Do you have Biblical evidence that suggests God WAS NOT the primary cause of an illness?

Z Man you have already posted this same exact post about 8 times and it has already been responded to and discussed.

If you post it one more time you will be banned from TOL.

You are being unessesarily distruptive.

 

[Z Man]

Z Man... are you kidding???

I believe God caused A storm but doesn't necessarily cause ALL storms.

Where is the contradiction?

I want to hear from anyone else who thinks there is a contradiction in that statement. If so, where?

To attribute God as the cause behind weather, then turn around and say He's not, is retarded. In saying such a thing, are you prepared to provide evidence that suggests others who may control the weather when God decides to take a vacation? Or do you believe that if people sin, that it initiates a storm to brew over the ocean and guides it to the location of the sinners, like a homing beacon?

You're ridiculous because all you do is talk a bunch of crap that is not supported by anything other than your say-so. Where I come from we call that bull****.

 

[Z Man]

Z Man you have already posted this same exact post about 8 times and it has already been responded to and discussed.

If you post it one more time you will be banned from TOL.

You are being unessesarily distruptive.

My gosh Knight, grow up. You inquired of Freak about whether God was a murderer or not over 15 times and took up over 5 pages, although Freak answered you several times.

If the only way you can win this debate between us is by banning me, do what you got to do - you're the boss.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

To attribute God as the cause behind weather, then turn around and say He's not, is retarded.

God can cause a specific event. We agree!

But just because God can and does cause one event doesn't necessarily mean He causes ALL events.

There simply is no contradiction in that. You have failed to provide any compelling argument to prove your case that God causes ALL events and have also failed to show there is a contradiction in my assertion that God can cause one event without having to cause ALL events.

You're ridiculous because all you do is talk a bunch of crap that is not supported by anything other than your say-so. Where I come from we call that bull****.

Please do not use foul language on TOL.

If you continue to use foul language you will be banned from TOL.

 

[Delmar]

Z Man
Just so you know. I don't beliieve that God, generally speaking, controals the weather.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Z Man
Just so you know. I don't beliieve that God, generally speaking, controals the weather.

[sarcasm] But God caused the flood!!! How could God not control the weather if He controlled the weather once on the past??????? [/sarcasm]

 

[Z Man]

God can cause a specific event. We agree!

But just because God can and does cause one event doesn't necessarily mean He causes ALL events.

There simply is no contradiction in that.

Let's look at the specific, because that's where your contradiction lies. You believe God causes weather, but doesn't cause weather.

My question is, if you believe God causes some weather events, but not all, who controls the weather in God's absence?

You have failed to provide any compelling argument to prove your case that God causes ALL events and have also failed to show there is a contradiction in my assertion that God can cause one event without having to cause ALL events.

Where is your proof Knight? I've used the Scriptures to show that God indeed controls the weather. If you believe He only controls it some of the time, where is your proof? Who controls it at other times?

 

[Z Man]

Z Man
Just so you know. I don't beliieve that God, generally speaking, controals the weather.

Have you ever read your Bible??? Just go to a Bible search site and type in 'rain'. Be warned, you will immediately experience shock.

 

[Delmar]

As a Christian, I believe that the Bible is our only source to draw conclusions upon to create theology, or an idea/doctrine of who God is.

The Bible claims that there is plenty you can learn about God from nature. Rom 1:20

 

[Delmar]

Have you ever read your Bible??? Just go to a Bible search site and type in 'rain'. Be warned, you will immediately experience shock.

Sure have! Have you?

 

[Z Man]

They Bible claims that there is plenty you can learn about God from nature. Rom 1:20

Rom 1:20 only infers that we can know God exists from nature; not that we can conjur up a whole theological doctrine based upon looking at trees and frogs.

 

[Delmar]

Rom 1:20 only infers that we can know God exists from nature; not that we can conjur up a whole theological doctrine based upon looking at trees and frogs.

True, It is also true that many of the thing that you believe about God did not first originate in the Bible.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Let's look at the specific, because that's where your contradiction lies. You believe God causes weather, but doesn't cause weather.

Why are you misrepresenting my position?

That isn't my position and you know it.

My position is.... God caused THE flood in the book of Genesis (He tells us that He caused the flood and He also tells us why He caused the flood). Yet just because God caused THE flood in Genesis doesn't mean He causes EVERY flood thereafter.

Where is the contradiction in my above statement? (in blue)

My father had a backed up sewer pipe in his basement a couple years ago which caused his basement to flood. There was a tree root blocking the sewer pipe which caused the flood. God DID NOT CAUSE the flood in my fathers basement even though God did in fact cause the flood that killed everyone on the earth except Noah and his family.

 

[Z Man]

Z Man
Just so you know. I don't beliieve that God, generally speaking, controals the weather.

Have you ever read your Bible??? Just go to a Bible search site and type in 'rain'. Be warned, you will immediately experience shock.

Sure have!

You just admitted to not believing what the Bible says.

 

[Delmar]

You just admitted to not believing what the Bible says.

You are a lying stack of ureX:

 

[Z Man]

Let's look at the specific, because that's where your contradiction lies. You believe God causes weather, but doesn't cause weather.

Why are you misrepresenting my position?

That isn't my position and you know it.

Great. So, since hurricanes are weather related events, you're willing to recant what you said earlier:

God did not decree Katrina.

Katrina was a hurricane. Hurricanes are: A severe tropical cyclone originating in the equatorial regions of the Atlantic Ocean or Caribbean Sea or eastern regions of the Pacific Ocean, traveling north, northwest, or northeast from its point of origin, and usually involving heavy rains.

I think the god you are thinking of is named: Grothar, God of the Weather or possibly Poseidon, god of water.

 

[Clete]

I'm not going to post every verse that says God caused a disease or illness. The Bible proves it itself. You can find them yourself through your own study.

Even if you did, it wouldn't establish your thesis. Do you know how to do anything but proof text, Z Man? It that really how you think something is established Biblically?

The Bible says that God was the cause of an illness in certain individuals - I'm sure we could both agree on that. To me, that's enough evidence to suggest that God causes disease. I don't understand why you need more. Why isn't Scripture enough for you? God Himself said He causes illness, and yet you still want more proof. What better proof is there? Are you waiting for a certain human being to say God causes illness to believe? Are you waiting for a certain amount of cases to prove God causes illness? Who better than God to say it Himself to prove a point?

Even if you were to establish that God caused an illness that would not prove or even suggest that God causes ALL illnesses! How is that hard to understand Z Man? In fact, I know you do understand it and are ignoring the point.

If you believe God causes some illness, but not all of it, then who or what causes it in other instances? What Scripture examples do you have to prove your case?

I am not going to be baited into playing like you've made an argument sufficient enough to justify answering this question. It is you who are positing that God causes all disease and it is you who have to prove it. A lack of having been proved wrong does not prove you right!

I don't have to. Read it yourself. Besides, I've provided adequate Scripture to make a valid point. For crying out loud, God Himself says He causes calamity, disease, and disabilities! What more do you want?

No one has denied that God has caused some people to have a disease but that is a far cry from proving that He causes all disease! That is your argument! Deny it all you want but it is and you know it.

We're looking for the cause of weather, biology, physics - not how it works. We know the basic principles behind weather, etc. But the textbooks will never tell us the ultimate cause. The Bible, however, does! The Bible clearly tells us that God is in control of the weather (no matter how much Knight disapproves), creates peace and calamity, causes disabilities, and on and on. God is the primary cause behind everything. My conclusion is based upon what I have read in Scriptures numerous times, from numerous cases and scenarios. Biblical evidence isn't good enough for you, thus the reason I asked what other sources do you suppose?

Now you've changed the subject altogether. Everyone knows that God created everything that exists and so if God hadn't created the Earth, no weather would ever have happened at all. But that is not the same point you are making. You are suggesting more than that God has creation under control but that He is in meticulous control of every minute event that happens. That is not Biblical and you have come nowhere even remotely close to even making a Biblical case for such a claim never mind actually having established it as the truth.

Not if I want to find out if God is the cause.

Yes even then Z Man. I'm not going to repeat the argument again. Your argument is fallacious. I've not simply made a case for it, I've proven it. By the rules of necessary inference (logic) your argument is fallacious, by definition. It is therefore of no use in proving or even making a case for your position. If you want to make a case for it using some other valid form of argument then I will be happy to engage you on that argument but you are not going to get me to go on the defensive here by making a counter argument as though you've put forward something of substance that need countering. As it stands your argument is soundly refuted and I'm completely content to leave in that condition for as long as you wish to wallow around in the aftermath.

The Biblical texts are my qualification! How can you state that we cannot make conclusions based upon the 'unqualified' Scriptures???

God Himself says He causes calamity, disease, and disability. HE SAID SO HIMSELF! Still not good enough for you? What more do you want Clete?

I want for you to stop making the same fallacious argument over and over again even after having it directly pointed out to you!
Let me break it down for you since you are seemingly blind to how you just made the exact argument that you are fixing to deny having made in the next sentence.

"God Himself says He causes calamity, disease, and disability. HE SAID SO HIMSELF!"​

That's a general statement Z Man. See how there is no "all" present in that sentence? You take this general statement which basically says nothing more than that there are diseased and calamities etc that have been caused by God (which no one has denied) and you tack on the following conclusion...

"Therefore God causes all calamity, disease, etc."

Thus you argue that what is true in general is true universally and without qualification. (i.e. for "qualification" read "exception").

Of course that's a horrible argument, but it's definitly not mine.

I've just proven, once again, that it is. You just got through presenting a perfect example of 'dicto simpliciter".

I've never argued that God only causes some catastrophes - my argument has always been that God causes all catastrophes in the Bible, thus we can reasonably conclude that He causes them all in our lives and others as well.

In order to make this argument you have to have first established the premise upon which it is based. That premise being that God caused all catastrophes in the Bible. You have not established that Z Man, you've only made the claim and proof-texted us all to death.

You've embarassed yourself. You have e-mailed a guy a false statement about me, and then posted it on this website, and it backfires on you. Why don't you try sending him another e-mail and this time tell the truth. Tell him that my argument is that God caused all catastrophes to occur in the Bible, thus God causes all catastrophes to occur. I'm sure he'll tell you that's legite (unless he doesn't believe the Scriptures are truth).

Next time, be a little more careful about what you say of others so you won't look so dumb. :dunce:

I don't know how obvious its been but I sort of think it's been obvious enough that I have been very respectful and substantive with you. The only possible exception is my having posted that email which you might have found offensive but even it was posted as a substantive (if not also funny) means of establishing my point against your argument. I'd appreciate no more blatant insults.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Z Man]

You are a lying stack of ureX:

Really?

You said you do not believe God controls the weather. I asked if you've read your Bible and done a search with the word 'rain' through the texts. You said, "Yes", without a recantation of saying God is not in control of weather. So this is your argument:

God does not control weather

I've read the Bible (specifically the passages where God says He controls when the rain and thunder and wind starts/stops/goes - basically the weather)

I still believe God does not control the weather​

So ladies and gents, in light of this, deardelmar has admitted to not believing in the Bible.