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[glorydaz]

We don't doubt that Jews would know Hebrew.
That does not mean that they had to write in Hebrew.

Again, do you have any evidence of original Hebrew manuscripts for John?

I’ve only heard conjecture about what language was originally written by John, but since his audience was Jewish perhaps….just perhaps …. it was NOT originally written in Greek, which is one reason I questioned the Word being translated as logos or logic as was being claimed.

 

[Right Divider]

I’ve only heard conjecture about what language was originally written by John, but since his audience was Jewish perhaps….just perhaps …. it was NOT originally written in Greek, which is one reason I questioned the Word being translated as logos or logic as was being claimed.

I don't go too much for conjecture. There's far too much of that. I need some evidence.

You have it backwards. Logos is translated as Word.

G3056 λόγος logos (lo'-ğos) n.​

1. a word, something said (including the thought).​

2. (by implication) a saying or expression.​

3. (by extension) a discourse (on a topic).​

4. (informally) a conversation (on a topic).​

5. (thus) a matter.​

6. (also) a reasoning (of the mental faculty).​

7. (hence) a reason (i.e. a motive).​

8. (negatively) a rationalization (i.e. application of plausible reasoning on a faulty premise).​

9. (by further extension) a calculation, computation, or an account (as an accounting of).​

10. (hence) a reckoning or an inventory (as called to account).​

11. (of asking) a question.​

12. (specially, with the article in John) the Word of God (capitalized), the Divine Expression, the Creator, the Word of Yahweh (i.e. the Anointed One, whether pre- or post-incarnate; that is, when Jesus is not embodied in the unglorified state of the old flesh of clay man, being quite dependent upon the Holy Spirit in that humble state of subsistence; see John 1:1-14 and Philippians 2:6-11; Also see context 15 below).​

13. (special use #2) the “Holy-word” of God (as the Holy Scriptures of the Old Testament).​

14. (special use #3) the “Redemptive-word” of God (as the full counsel and instruction of the Good News of Redemption through trust in Jesus Anointed, our Savior and eternal High Priest; not merely its announcement).​

15. (Note #1) (the three INTERTWINED MEANINGS of “Word† of God” and “word of God” can refer to a few simultaneous (and inseparable) contexts resulting in an intentional double or triple entendre; of special note is Hebrews 4:12 which should be understood simultaneously in all three contexts: 12, 14 and 13, in that order of priority).​

16. (Note #2) (often, “the word” is used as a shortened form of “the word of God” throughout the New Testament, connoting any these preceding contexts/concepts; see Acts 4:29, Acts 4:31).​

17. (Note #3) (Redemptive-word: this is the clear and instructive communication of the promised Redemption with sources including Old Testament passages from the Torah-Law, the Holy Prophets, and the Psalms, and in the whole New Testament: the Holy Angels at Jesus' birth, John the Immerser, Jesus our Glorious Savior, first Ambassadors who were eyewitnesses of these things, including Paul as one born “out-of-season,” also Mark and Luke, and through the continuously active and enabling ministry of the promised Holy Spirit who reminds us of and tutors us in these eternal matters).​

[from G3004]​

KJV: account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say(-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work​

Root(s): G3004​

Compare: G4487​

See also: G3048, G3049, H1697​

 

[glorydaz]

I don't go too much for conjecture. There's far too much of that. I need some evidence.

You have it backwards. Logos is translated as Word.

G3056 λόγος logos (lo'-ğos) n.​

1. a word, something said (including the thought)​

2. (by implication) a saying or expression.​

3. (by extension) a discourse (on a topic).​

4. (informally) a conversation (on a topic).​

5. (thus) a matter.​

6. (also) a reasoning (of the mental faculty).​

7. (hence) a reason (i.e. a motive).​

8. (negatively) a rationalization (i.e. application of plausible reasoning on a faulty premise).​

9. (by further extension) a calculation, computation, or an account (as an accounting of).​

10. (hence) a reckoning or an inventory (as called to account).​

11. (of asking) a question.​

12. (specially, with the article in John) the Word of God (capitalized), the Divine Expression, the Creator, the Word of Yahweh (i.e. the Anointed One, whether pre- or post-incarnate; that is, when Jesus is not embodied in the unglorified state of the old flesh of clay man, being quite dependent upon the Holy Spirit in that humble state of subsistence; see John 1:1-14 and Philippians 2:6-11; Also see context 15 below).​

13. (special use #2) the “Holy-word” of God (as the Holy Scriptures of the Old Testament).​

14. (special use #3) the “Redemptive-word” of God (as the full counsel and instruction of the Good News of Redemption through trust in Jesus Anointed, our Savior and eternal High Priest; not merely its announcement).​

15. (Note #1) (the three INTERTWINED MEANINGS of “Word† of God” and “word of God” can refer to a few simultaneous (and inseparable) contexts resulting in an intentional double or triple entendre; of special note is Hebrews 4:12 which should be understood simultaneously in all three contexts: 12, 14 and 13, in that order of priority).​

16. (Note #2) (often, “the word” is used as a shortened form of “the word of God” throughout the New Testament, connoting any these preceding contexts/concepts; see Acts 4:29, Acts 4:31).​

17. (Note #3) (Redemptive-word: this is the clear and instructive communication of the promised Redemption with sources including Old Testament passages from the Torah-Law, the Holy Prophets, and the Psalms, and in the whole New Testament: the Holy Angels at Jesus' birth, John the Immerser, Jesus our Glorious Savior, first Ambassadors who were eyewitnesses of these things, including Paul as one born “out-of-season,” also Mark and Luke, and through the continuously active and enabling ministry of the promised Holy Spirit who reminds us of and tutors us in these eternal matters).​

[from G3004]​

KJV: account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say(-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work​

Root(s): G3004​

Compare: G4487​

See also: G3048, G3049, H1697​

Backwards?

When I read “The Word was God“ it sounds like a speaking or hearing thing. When I read Logic was God, it sounds distant. Since humans have to hear and we can’t read minds Jesus being the spoken Word and Speaking things into existence. If anything, I would say the Father is Logic (mind) and the Son is the Word. But, that may just be more silly conjecture on my part. I was thinking I might be onto something.

 

[Right Divider]

Backwards?

Yes... you said "the Word being translated as logos or logic".

But it's Logos being translated as Word.

 

[JudgeRightly]

I can’t remember how to work this quoting stuff, so I’ll just mush it altogether.

Don't be afraid to experiment with the text editor.

I’ve read that Hebrew manuscripts date back to Moses,

We're talking about the Greek manuscripts, are we not? From the New Testament?

The Old Testament manuscripts are all in Hebrew. The New Testament ones are mostly in Greek, with a smattering of Aramaic mixed in in places.

The only Greek Old Testament manuscripts are from things like the Septuagint, which is a TRANSLATION of Hebrew texts.

In other words, all the Hebrew texts are of the Old Testament. There are no Hebrew New Testament texts.

and there are certainly a lot of Hebrew sounding names early on.

So what?

I’m a bit taken aback there would be any doubt that Hebrew was spoken by the Jews back in Biblical days.

As RD said, no one is saying that none of the Jews spoke Hebrew.

What I said was that Greek was the scholarly language of the day, and it was commonly used for writing documents.

Such as the books of the New Testament.

I know God confused the languages after the tower of Babel. What common language was used back then, would be my question to you.

What does any of this have to do with whether there were New Testament manscripts originally written in Hebrew? Or do you no longer assert this as possible?

I was speaking of “these“ last days, not the days when Jesus walked the earth.

The verse you were quoting was speaking about the days when Jesus walked the earth.

And you'd be wrong, because God doesn't speak to us through His Son (directly, that is). He speaks to us through His word, the Bible.

Too much prophecy had yet to be fulfilled for it to have been back then. Sorry this is such a jumbled mess.

Supra.

 

[Nick M]

Trust of religious translators like Strong's starts and ends where it matters most for me. The departure of the church. Often called the rapture.

G3056 λόγος logos (lo'-ğos) n.1. a word, something said (including the thought).2. (by implication) a saying or expression.3. (by extension) a discourse (on a topic).4. (informally) a conversation (on a topic).5. (thus) a matter.6. (also) a reasoning (of the mental faculty).7. (hence) a reason (i.e. a motive).

Is that from Strong's or something else?

 

[Right Divider]

Trust of religious translators like Strong's starts and ends where it matters most for me. The departure of the church. Often called the rapture.

Is that from Strong's or something else?

Strong's

 

[glorydaz]

Don't be afraid to experiment with the text editor.



We're talking about the Greek manuscripts, are we not? From the New Testament?

The Old Testament manuscripts are all in Hebrew. The New Testament ones are mostly in Greek, with a smattering of Aramaic mixed in in places.

The only Greek Old Testament manuscripts are from things like the Septuagint, which is a TRANSLATION of Hebrew texts.

In other words, all the Hebrew texts are of the Old Testament. There are no Hebrew New Testament texts.



So what?



As RD said, no one is saying that none of the Jews spoke Hebrew.

What I said was that Greek was the scholarly language of the day, and it was commonly used for writing documents.

Such as the books of the New Testament.



What does any of this have to do with whether there were New Testament manscripts originally written in Hebrew? Or do you no longer assert this as possible?



The verse you were quoting was speaking about the days when Jesus walked the earth.

And you'd be wrong, because God doesn't speak to us through His Son (directly, that is). He speaks to us through His word, the Bible.



Supra.

Don't be afraid to experiment with the text editor.



We're talking about the Greek manuscripts, are we not? From the New Testament?

The Old Testament manuscripts are all in Hebrew. The New Testament ones are mostly in Greek, with a smattering of Aramaic mixed in in places.

The only Greek Old Testament manuscripts are from things like the Septuagint, which is a TRANSLATION of Hebrew texts.

In other words, all the Hebrew texts are of the Old Testament. There are no Hebrew New Testament texts.



So what?



As RD said, no one is saying that none of the Jews spoke Hebrew.

What I said was that Greek was the scholarly language of the day, and it was commonly used for writing documents.

Such as the books of the New Testament.



What does any of this have to do with whether there were New Testament manscripts originally written in Hebrew? Or do you no longer assert this as possible?



The verse you were quoting was speaking about the days when Jesus walked the earth.

And you'd be wrong, because God doesn't speak to us through His Son (directly, that is). He speaks to us through His word, the Bible.



Supra.

My goodness you managed to mess up everything I said. So saying I‘d be wrong might make an ounce of sense….somehow.

Thank you, though, for telling me I can try and figure this out. Do we have to cut and paste to quote a verse. I’m on an IPad.

 

[glorydaz]

Trust of religious translators like Strong's starts and ends where it matters most for me. The departure of the church. Often called the rapture.

Is that from Strong's or something else?

I hear ya. We won’t be here for most of the rest of prophecy.

 

[JudgeRightly]

My goodness you managed to mess up everything I said. So saying I‘d be wrong might make an ounce of sense….somehow.

Thank you, though, for telling me I can try and figure this out. Do we have to cut and paste to quote a verse. I’m on an IPad.

The way I do it is I type the tags in manually.



This is selected, so every time I start a reply to someone, it's just plain text, and not formatted. I then use (some of) the formatting tags from the BB Codes page. (Click on "Help" at the bottom of the page, then click on "BB codes", it has a list of the things you can do.) Keep in mind some of the tags are broken, some with no workaround.

Alternatively, if you don't have the above setting turned on (in the image I posted), you should be able to click within the "quoted" portion, hit enter, and it will separate it out so you can respond to a specific portion of the quoted text.

As for pasting verses, I use the BibleGateway app to select the verses I want to quote, hit share, copy text, then paste it here in the text editor.

 

[Clete]

Yeah, it could be either or both, as far as that goes. I can’t help but lean toward Word….speaking something into being. There’s something about speaking rather than thinking something into being. But, back to being born again, was Jesus telling Nicodemus the nation had to be born again? That’s the part I really wonder about.

God definitely spoke the universe into being but no word can be spoken without the thought that produced it coming first. The thought it primary. Further, the word used in John 1 is NOT the Greek word for the single English term, "word". It is simply an incorrect translation into English. The passage, as rendered in English, fails entirely to convey anything similar to what John's Hellenized audience would have understood it to mean. In fact, in English, it is very nearly bereft of any meaning whatsoever because "word" simply is not ever used in this way. It has to be interpreted to mean something, which in most cases means that it is assumed to mean this or that by some theologian who is free to base that assumption on practically anything precisely because the translation is so poor. Your own personal preference is based on Genesis, which John 1 makes no direct reference to other than perhaps a stylistic one (i.e. similar phrasing (e.g. "In the beginning...")). In other words, your preferred interpretation of John 1 is based on doctrine rather than on the text itself. The doctrine is sound and so, such an interpretation is generally acceptable, but that isn't the point. The point is that it isn't what the passage says and a correct translation would be far superior to anything we might be able to fish out of the rest of the bible with which to assign meaning to John's opening verses.

Logos encompasses ideas like reason, principle, or divine logic and in the Hellenistic mindset, it was a reference to the organizing principle behind the universe. John's use of Logos bridges Hellenistic thought with the Hebrew concept of the Creator and Sustainer of the world and John uses that concept to refer directly to the pre-existent Christ, emphasizing divine wisdom and even Reason itself made incarnate. Logos is where we get the suffix "-ology" as in biology. "bio" means "life" and "-ology" means "study of" or "understanding of". Thus, things pertaining to biology are called "biological". And if you wanted to translated "biology" or "biological" into Greek, both would be translated the same way, "bio logia". "Logos" is the root of the word 'logia' which is the form of the word logos that meant "study of" or "knowledge of". The point here being that these words do not mean "word". It all has to do with thought, rational discourse, study, understanding, wisdom, etc. For the single term "word" to be the correct translation the Greek would need to be either "lexi" or "rhēma", not logos.

 

[Right Divider]

Strong's

I should be more specific... I access Strong's through theWord https://www.theword.net/

 

[Nick M]

I should be more specific... I access Strong's through theWord https://www.theword.net/

I used it to look up words. But I wonder how they could be so wrong on some doctrinal issues.