Are you born again (John 3)? Take this test.

[Lon]

You are clearly not here to deceive. I have a question that is off my own subject. It is the way of TOL. Embrace it. Have you seen a chart like this before? You probably have, but I want to make sure. There are others like it.

View attachment 13146

Thank you. No, but the details were there in mind. I've been accused of being Mid Acts (accused isn't the right word, I've been told I'm well within Mid Acts thinking). In that, I agree a lot with Mid Acts but for me "whole world" means whole world. I suppose it places me a bit on the Scofield circle, but I'm 1) appreciative and 2) often in agreement with Mid Acts. Perhaps it is just trying to take care of my bins yet, but "Whole World" is a hang up and thank you, Nick

 

[Lon]

I have not seen this. Despite the claims of that idiot godrulz. I know he is no longer here. I saw the thread. It doesn't change his moronic and foolish ways.

He passed away last year. He was Open Theist but believe, like many in the charismatic movement, he was more Covenant in theology. Even in our disagreements, it does help to know where we all were coming from.

 

[Lon]

Let me take a step back. I realize that the whole "Born again" applied specifically through Israel and that it conflates a bit. I don't want to be seen as objecting to that. Rather I'm trying to see, if only the moniker particularly is the problem or if 'born of Spirit' is yet our universal need. I believe it is, we have to be new creations. I recognize and can concur that at that specific time, it was a message particular to Nicodemus. My hold-out, if you will, is that I see an idea in the Son, that His work would be, and the Father's heart, a redemption on the scope of the whole world, because that is what it says. As such, I don't have a problem with 'born again' monikers, persay. Let me ask: How do Mid Acts see the rest of Christianity? Confused but saved? Fretting when they should be trusting? Other? Thanks all. Appreciate this thread. -Lon

 

[SwordOfTruth]

Eternal life, and that is a red herring.

Jesus didn't say "you have no eternal life in you". He said "you have no life in you".

Are you equating ordinary life with eternal life? Are you suggesting that eternal life is a perpetal extension of the "life" you already have? More of the same albeit perhaps in a different place? Or are you actually suggesting there are two (or more?) specific types of "life"?

We are dead from Adam's sin. Separated from God. The spiritual life died, he did not collapse from a heart attack.

Adam lived 930yrs according to the Bible. So are you suggesting he lived all those years with one type of life but was in all that time lacking some other type of life? i.e. your "spiritual life"?

 

[SwordOfTruth]

52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?”

The Jews think he means it literally. It seems you do too.

Nope not for one second do I think Jesus was asking us to be cannibals and eat his literal body and drink his literal blood. That would be facile.

But Jesus definitely WAS telling us to eat and drink SOMETHING. He was being allegorical and cryptical as was his way (much like his parables).

You still don't understand what it was he said we MUST eat and drink. You've conflated it with passover and nonsense about figurative bread and wine. That's not what Jesus was talking about. He was talking about something very specific, something you have to eat and drink. Something real and tangible. Something that will facilitate the transfer of "life" into your dying body.

Like those Jews who followed the Law and tradition, but did not believe, you too are blinded by him and condemned. How does that taste anyway?

No idea what you are talking about. I am not remotely blinded. Indeed I have been given (by grace) the "eyes to see" and "ears to hear" that Jesus often spoke of. That's why few can see what the real meaning of the verse is. "For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

There it is again. That reference to "life". It's talking about the same thing and it's clearly saying that VERY FEW people find it. Odd then that billions of so-called Christians think they've found the answer. That doesn't stack up with the verse there. Only very few will ever find it and only those who have the "eyes to see" and "ears to hear" that Jesus spoke of. Pray for those eyes and ears imo for otherwise as Jesus said, you have no "life" in you.

10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” 11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.

Yep that passage is right on point. It's those "mysteries of the kingdom" that I am talking about. Jesus kept them from the Hoi Polloi. He taught his disciples the secrets, the knowledge of this special "life" that we are talking about and how it is achieved, where it comes from, how to get it into your body to thereby effect the transformation that is needed.

 

[marke]

So the few worker bees, born again, personal relationship leading to salvation (conditional good works) small crowd won't take the test? Not surprising.

God instructs born again believers to give diligence to make their calling and election sure so as not to be deceived into dying in their sins while falsely believing they are saved.

 

[Idolater]

Let me take a step back. I realize that the whole "Born again" applied specifically through Israel and that it conflates a bit. I don't want to be seen as objecting to that. Rather I'm trying to see, if only the moniker particularly is the problem or if 'born of Spirit' is yet our universal need. I believe it is, we have to be new creations. I recognize and can concur that at that specific time, it was a message particular to Nicodemus. My hold-out, if you will, is that I see an idea in the Son, that His work would be, and the Father's heart, a redemption on the scope of the whole world, because that is what it says. As such, I don't have a problem with 'born again' monikers, persay. Let me ask: How do Mid Acts see the rest of Christianity? Confused but saved? Fretting when they should be trusting? Other? Thanks all. Appreciate this thread. -Lon

What does it mean to be born of water, in context?

can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Does it only mean, born in the natural way, meaning just being born itself, is that being born of water? or does being born of water mean something else here, in context?

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Can you be born of the Spirit, WITHOUT being born of water?


EDITED TO ADD

Is being born again, and being born by the Word, and being born of the Spirit, all the same thing?

Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

 

[Nick M]

God instructs born again believers to give diligence to make their calling and election sure so as not to be deceived into dying in their sins while falsely believing they are saved.

Are you born again IAW what the Lord Jesus Christ said in Verse 8? Demonstrate it for us. I'll wait.

 

[Nick M]

But Jesus definitely WAS telling us to eat and drink SOMETHING.

Paul tells you the context, since you reject the obvious. Go read. He is correcting and rebuking, as usual.

 

[Nick M]

Jesus didn't say "you have no eternal life in you". He said "you have no life in you".

And he clearly was walking and breathing.

 

[Nick M]

8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

No takers?

 

[Nick M]

No, but the details were there in mind.

Have you noticed the order of books of the "New Testament" match the many dispensationalist charts that exist? Even Paul's letters are in a specific order, by the work of the Holy Spirit. They line up. Our doctrine today is Ephesians. All of it is useful and edifying.

 

[Nick M]

He was being allegorical and cryptical as was his way

So we don't really need to be born again?

 

[Right Divider]

Realize you don't all agree among yourselves.

Irrelevant.

It'll help.

Sure.

I do get this and understand. Let me ask: do you see any things 'that are the same' in this passage between Israel and us gentile Christians today?

Again, Jesus' entire earthly ministry was to Israel. Unless you understand everything in that context, you'll continue to confuse what He means.

He didn't "so love the 'world?'"

Attempting to falsely accuse?

Naw, just answer whether anything is the same. Do you, a gentile today, have to be 'born of the Spirit?' yes or no (the rest is just detail imho).

Everyone must have a spiritual birth. That is not the point.

The kingdom of God that Jesus spoke about was an earthly kingdom.... it was the kingdom of Israel with Jesus as its King. That is when THEIR new covenant will allow them to keep the law, etc.

I agree that is the message according to Mid Acts and not really on the table. I'm rather asking if 'born again' is the same need for gentiles today 'if' there is anything the same.

No, born again is referring to Israel's rebirth as a spiritual nation.

Mid Acts is not opposed to 'same' just looks whether it applies to all of us or not. If not 'born again' something incredibly similar. If I were Mid Acts, "world" is important and I'd reckon it into my theology. 1) Thank you, sincerely for the input 2) please explain the difference as best as you can with whatever time you've got and thank you (sincerely). We aren't enemies, we disagree at times but I genuinely enjoy theology discussion and fellowship despite the difference. It is one reason (call me a glutton?) I'm still on TOL. I care and discussion over anything I and you love about Our Precious God is worth the time spent. In Him -Lon

It's worth noting that the KJV is superior to many modern English translation in that it makes clear the difference between SINGULAR and PLURAL. Thee and thou are SINGULAR, Ye and you are PLURAL.

So look carefully at what Jesus said:

John 3:7 (AKJV/PCE)​

(3:7) Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.​

He's speaking to Nicodemus SINGULARLY but He's speaking about him in the PLURAL (not just Nicodemus).

 

[SwordOfTruth]

And he clearly was walking and breathing.

More importantly, so were the people he was talking to. He was talking to living people and saying "you have no "life"in you". Go figure.

The crux of the matter is what that "life" is that Jesus was referring to

 

[SwordOfTruth]

So we don't really need to be born again?

I didn't say that at any point. I said, in specific respect of Jesus's words that "we MUST eat and drink something otherwise we have no life in us" that Jesus was being cryptic and allegorical at that point. He clearly wasn't referring to his actual flesh and actual blood. He was cryptically referring to something else. I've already explained what that something else was.

As for being "born again", yes I believe it is necessary for us all to go through a specific kind of transformation in which our bodies gain access to large amounts of "life" (as Jesus put it) and gradually we change from being a physical being into something different, a spirit/light being.

Note that Jesus didn't come out of the tomb a man. The man was gone. Dead. Finished. No more. What came out was an entirely new being. One that was able (when needed) to look like the image of his former self so others would recognise him but that's as close as the similarity gets. Jesus had transformed into a spirit/light being and in such form he then ascended into heaven. No-one who is in a physical body is going to heaven. It's impossible. So we know we will all initially die in terms of the physical body but we can live on as a spirit being. How we get from A to B I suspect has multiple options. The vast majority will simply "die" first in their human form and then at some point afterward will transform. However I strongly suspect it is possible to make that transformation whilst still alive, by doing what Jesus said, eating and drinking those certain somethings he mentioned. In doing so, bit by bit the physical body is completely purified and perfected but along with it the spiritual side too and at a certain point I believe the latter can detach freely at will from the physical and go on its journey.

 

[Nick M]

I didn't say that at any point.

You said it was allegoric meaning it is an abstract and not a literal idea. When you start your post with a lie, it stops there until correction.

 

[Nick M]

The crux of the matter is what that "life" is that Jesus was referring to

It was already answered and you don't like it. We are walking and breathing, yet Paul says my body is dead. And he proved it with the law. My spirit is now alive having been baptized by the Holy Spirit into Christ. That is not born a second time. I still occupy a dead body.

 

[Nick M]

The crux of the matter is what that "life" is that Jesus was referring to

Also, you don't answer a question with a question.

 

[Nick M]

As for being "born again", yes I believe it is necessary for us all to go through a specific kind of transformation in which our bodies gain access to large amounts of "life" (as Jesus put it) and gradually we change from being a physical being into something different, a spirit/light being.

Correct. The thing with prophecy is it is repeated in scripture. You just won't find it in Paul's letters. That was the unsearchable riches of Christ. Let me give a quick example. From Daniel.

31 And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation.

11 “And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.

From Matthew


9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. 15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

From Revelation

4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. 5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.

13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child.

17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

All of this is Jacob's trouble, aka the Great Tribulation. Prophecy repeats to drive the point home.

Ezekiel 37

11 Then He said to me, “Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They indeed say, ‘Our bones are dry, our hope is lost, and we ourselves are cut off!’ 12 Therefore prophesy and say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 Then you shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and brought you up from your graves. 14 I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the Lord, have spoken it and performed it,” says the Lord.’ ”

Nicodemus was supposed to know, since he was a teacher of Israel. Read Ezekiel 37 again. And closer. Pay attention to the details.

3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

After you read 37, read 38.

14 “Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say to Gog, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “On that day when My people Israel dwell safely, will you not know it? 15 Then you will come from your place out of the far north, you and many peoples with you, all of them riding on horses, a great company and a mighty army. 16 You will come up against My people Israel like a cloud, to cover the land. It will be in the latter days that I will bring you against My land, so that the nations may know Me, when I am hallowed in you, O Gog, before their eyes.” 17 Thus says the Lord God: “Are you he of whom I have spoken in former days by My servants the prophets of Israel, who prophesied for years in those days that I would bring you against them? ........ 21 I will call for a sword against Gog throughout all My mountains,” says the Lord God. “Every man’s sword will be against his brother. 22 And I will bring him to judgment with pestilence and bloodshed; I will rain down on him, on his troops, and on the many peoples who are with him, flooding rain, great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.

And Revelation

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

Prophecy is repeated. John 3 was prophetic. Nicodemus was supposed to know. Verse 8 tells you born of the Spirit. Ezekiel tells you born of the Spirit.