Right Divider
Body part
I only call it that because it's in the Bible. Like this:
What is the "message" in the gospels?
What is the "message" in this dispensation of grace?
How are they "different"?
Are you a son of God? Is God your heavenly father?
- Thread starter oatmeal
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What is the "message" in this dispensation of grace?
How are they "different"?
oatmeal
Well-known member
Before we go there, I thought it might be useful to point out that the "gospel" in the garden of Eden was different than both the gospel period and the grace period
Several things I like to point out about the gospel period is that it records Jesus Christ fulfilling the law, which puts in a different category than the law period. The gospels record the works God wanted us to know regarding Jesus' actions and words in the process of both fulfilling the law and in meeting the requirements for our redemption and salvation. It records what it took for Jesus to purchase our redemption, our remission of sins and the cost to make redemption a gift instead of requiring the works of the law by believing
God had the apostle Paul record what the results of what Jesus Christ accomplished and what they mean to us
Right Divider
Body part
Yes, there are MANY gospels in the Bible.
What is "the gospel period"?
What is "the grace period"?
These periods of yours seem very contrived. There is no such thing as "fulfilling the law".
The gospels (I take it that you are referring to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) are primarily a record Christ's earthly ministry to Israel, as Paul says in Romans 15:8. Paul also tells us that we are not to know Christ that way, 2 Cor 5:16.
Nobody knew anything about God's grace freely given without works until God revealed it to and through Paul.
God did a whole lot more than that through Paul. God gave Paul the dispensation of the grace of God. You cannot find this in Christ's earthly ministry (before His ascension and His appearance to Saul/Paul).
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oatmeal
Well-known member
Gospel meaning good news
It certainly evident that the good news takes many shapes and forms or maybe we should refer it as different precepts concepts principles.
The good news in for instance Proverbs 3: 5-6 is that if we meet the three conditions God will direct our paths.
The good news of Genesis 3:15 is that God would provide someone who would crush the head of the serpent etc
the good news of first Corinthians 14:5 is that we can speak in tongues just like the apostles did and that Jesus Christ foretold
In a sense every truth in God's word is good news in some way or shape or another
And every truth and God's word being good news takes on a lot of different subjects.
Yes we have many many different gospels or truths that are good news however since God is the author the soul author of scripture we can rest assure that all of God's word is basically good news for anyone who chooses to believe.
That gospel. Is that dispensation as you like to refer to it that the Redeemer the promise seat of the woman from Genesis 3:15 it's conceived and born fulfills the ministry that God gave to him thus redeeming mankind and making the gift of salvation available to anyone who chooses to believe. He fulfilled the law in this gospel in his ministry. Romans 10:9 -10
Jesus Christ that having fulfilled the law was taken up into heaven to be seated at the right hand of the throne of God and it's now the head of the body and functions as an intercessor advocate and mediator
the grace period begin with the day of Pentecost with the giving of the gift of holy spirit from the Holy Spirit. In this age of Grace and this dispensation of Grace we fulfill the law not by being entrapped into doing the law but by love and by the mind of the spirit. Romans 8: 4,13:8
well Jesus Christ said of his own ministry I'm not here to destroy the law but to fulfill it.
See Matthew 5: 17-18, Matthew 26:54, 56,. Luke 21:32,. Luke 24:44
There are many other beautiful verses let's speak of fulfillment of some sort of another whether it be a prophecy from Old testament prophets regarding Jesus Christ or even us who by love fulfill the law.
the last half of what you presented I don't have a problem with in general anyway
Right Divider
Body part
So grace is not good news? How can there be a separate "gospel period" and "grace period"?
Absolutely.
Taking scripture completely out of its context. That Psalm is specially about King David and not you.
So that "good news" (i.e., gospel) was not in the "gospel period"?
Are you unaware that the sign gifts ceased even before the end of Paul's ministry?
Paul, who had performed even "special miracles" that healed people with a handkerchief, and yet was later leaving his friend sick and recommending wine as medicine. See Acts 19:11-12, 2 Tim 4:20, 1 Tim 5:23
And yet so much of this "good news" (i.e., gospel) is outside of the "gospel period".
Is there a point?
And yet God separated Israel from the rest of the world.
No, the "birthday of the church" was not on a lawfully required feast day for Israel. Peter preached to ISRAEL on that day, and not to the body of Christ. Acts 2:22
He was here to fulfill the law AND the prophets AND the psalms. It was NOT specially about His fulfilling the law.
So nice.
It's really too bad that you cannot see the truth that God gave Paul revelation what was hidden until He revealed them to Paul. This is the primary source of your confusion.
oatmeal
Well-known member
did I say that grace is not good news?So grace is not good news? How can there be a separate "gospel period" and "grace period"?
Absolutely.
Taking scripture completely out of its context. That Psalm is specially about King David and not you.
So that "good news" (i.e., gospel) was not in the "gospel period"?
Are you unaware that the sign gifts ceased even before the end of Paul's ministry?
Paul, who had performed even "special miracles" that healed people with a handkerchief, and yet was later leaving his friend sick and recommending wine as medicine. See Acts 19:11-12, 2 Tim 4:20, 1 Tim 5:23
And yet so much of this "good news" (i.e., gospel) is outside of the "gospel period".
Is there a point?
And yet God separated Israel from the rest of the world.
No, the "birthday of the church" was not on a lawfully required feast day for Israel. Peter preached to ISRAEL on that day, and not to the body of Christ. Acts 2:22
He was here to fulfill the law AND the prophets AND the psalms. It was NOT specially about His fulfilling the law.
So nice.
It's really too bad that you cannot see the truth that God gave Paul revelation what was hidden until He revealed them to Paul. This is the primary source of your confusion.
It is assumptions like that that turn people away from any good you might be doing
If Proverbs 3:5-6 does not apply to us at all, please tell me if the ten commandments apply to us since it was given to Moses, not me personally
oatmeal
Well-known member
Since this subject is not the subject of this thread, if you wish to discuss this further, please start a new thread.So grace is not good news? How can there be a separate "gospel period" and "grace period"?
Absolutely.
Taking scripture completely out of its context. That Psalm is specially about King David and not you.
So that "good news" (i.e., gospel) was not in the "gospel period"?
Are you unaware that the sign gifts ceased even before the end of Paul's ministry?
Paul, who had performed even "special miracles" that healed people with a handkerchief, and yet was later leaving his friend sick and recommending wine as medicine. See Acts 19:11-12, 2 Tim 4:20, 1 Tim 5:23
And yet so much of this "good news" (i.e., gospel) is outside of the "gospel period".
Is there a point?
And yet God separated Israel from the rest of the world.
No, the "birthday of the church" was not on a lawfully required feast day for Israel. Peter preached to ISRAEL on that day, and not to the body of Christ. Acts 2:22
He was here to fulfill the law AND the prophets AND the psalms. It was NOT specially about His fulfilling the law.
So nice.
It's really too bad that you cannot see the truth that God gave Paul revelation what was hidden until He revealed them to Paul. This is the primary source of your confusion.
If you wish to discuss the topic of this thread, I will discuss that with you
Right Divider
Body part
Not directly, but if you have a separate "gospel period" and "grace period" do you see the problem?
Speak clearly and I will not have to make assumptions about what you mean.
My apologies, I read that as Psalms earlier and not Proverbs.
Proverbs 3 was also written by an Israelite under the law. If understood in that context, we can get general principles about obeying God and following His ways out of it. But you have to be careful.
Note the blessing in verse two for keeping the commandments of the law.
The Israelites were required to keep the law. They would be blessed if they keep it, or cursed if they did not.
Does God operate that way with the body of Christ?
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Right Divider
Body part
You got it.
I think that question is weak since it has no significant point. Paul mentions the body of Christ many times, for example, but no other NT writer mentions it even once. That has no bearing on the reality of the body of Christ or suggests other writers in the NT were not part of the body of Christ.
oatmeal
Well-known member
Actually, cherry picking in a positive sense, is a very good way to learn the meaning of scripture.
If you want to go to an orchard to pick cherries, you should to a cherry orchard, not a corn field, nor an apple orchard.
If you are looking for cherries you should go where cherries are found
oatmeal
Well-known member
We should ask why God, as the sole author of scripture, have Paul refer to being "born again"
God, being the sole author of scripture, was going to have Peter write those truths down
Why didn't Paul make reference to Jesus being born in a stable? Because God was going to have Luke write that down.
As you well know
God knows what He is doing
All humans are made in God's image and are in one sense God's offspring.
Acts 17:28
For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
But just as Abraham had two sons
Galatians 4:22
For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
So God has two 'nations' or 'tribes' of offspring, one group who will go to heaven and one group who will end in hell. The wicked shall not inherit the kingdom with the righteous.
Galatians 4:30
Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Right Divider
Body part
It's a perfectly valid point... regardless of your hand waving.
BINGO!!!!
Again, your hand waving is meaningless.
The differences between Paul's writing and those of the circumcision are very important.
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Separating too much of the Word of God into passages not meant for Christians from passages only intended for Christians leads to very bad interpretations.
Right Divider
Body part
You have a philosophy that is not supported by scripture.
The distinctly different doctrines found in Paul's epistles is not "hard to detect" unless someone has a firm commitment to the myths of Churchianity that most of Christendom follows blindly.
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ttruscott
Well-known member
All this is true but it does not address the fact that Job 38:7 seems to claim that ALL the Sons of GOD (even the disinherited ones, Deuteronomy 32:5) saw the creation of the physical universe, that is, if you are a Son of GOD then you were there singing HIS praises with the rest of us.
I don't believe the context forces us to assume that all believers of all ages were present at the creation.
ttruscott
Well-known member
I have never said that the verse is a proof verse forcing any belief, just that it was a possible interpretation. When so many possibles exist, the probable can seem clearer.
If Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, can be discounted on face value, anything can be discounted. It is sort of like the divine Jesus or the nature of hell...no one verse is considered proof by all of us though we can be persuaded by a preponderance of verses. But there are a way more possible interpretations of verses for PCE than there is for either the divine Jesus or eternal hell versus annihilation. You have just never seen them because the created on earth theory is so predominant, the PCE interpretation just never comes to mind when you come across one.
In other words, any verse that conveys the idea of pre-existence has rarely been interpreted this way before because almost every exegete automatically looks for a different interpretation when they read such a Scripture. This being the case, a mere list of Scriptures will not constitute proof of scriptural support for this doctrine but, to provide such proof, such a list will have to be accompanied by an in-depth exegesis of the said Scriptures. Providing such a list without the accompanying new exegesis would only tend to prove to its searchers that this doctrine had no scriptural support, simply because they would tend to interpret the Scriptures that supply proof of our pre-conception existence, in much the same way that everybody used to interpret the Scriptures regarding the Christ King.