Are police trigger happy?

[fool]

I have them ready. But they're safe in the glove box where they belong. The problem with all of this, is after a while, they think they're entitled, and take offense if you don't do it.

They are entitled to those three documents if you're driving.
Why drag it out?
Why make the guy stand on the side of the road longer than he has to?
These people are keeping you safe, why not try to keep them safe by making your traffic stop short and sweet?

 

[Town Heretic]

When I was a teenager I'd been roaring about the town with a carload of friends, just goofing off. A local pulled me over and, not ever having been in a traffic stop before, I got out of the car along with everyone else (they apparently shared my lack of experience). The officer barked, "Everyone back in the car!" and kids were literally diving through open windows in a panicked rush to comply.

He started laughing so hard that he couldn't go through with it. Told me to watch my foot and waved us on. He was still laughing. Nobody was harmed in the making of that memory.

Another time I had a cop pull me over for racing around the town square and past the police station. Well, we slowed down at the station, but hit it again at the light.

Took both cars to the station where the Chief told us we could either agree to keep it legal within city limits or he could bring our fathers down to the station to hash it out. We took the deal, left without tickets and I never raced in town again.

Small towns. Everyone knew everyone and we had police who were mostly interested in everyone behaving and simplifying their lives. Great place to grow up.

 

[The Berean]

Hah! No, I just took a long break from this forum. Then I sort of forgot about it. Then I remembered, and decide to see if my password still worked and....voila!

Welcome back SUTG! I still remember your quote from way back when.

"I'm an atheist. Therefore, I worship myself [emoji144] "

Sent from my SM-G920V using TOL mobile app

 

[SUTG]

Welcome back SUTG! I still remember your quote from way back when.

"I'm an atheist. Therefore, I worship myself [emoji144] "

Sent from my SM-G920V using TOL mobile app

Hello, The Berean. I remember you as well. One of my favorite posters from back in the day. A hispanic guy who lives near San Jose, amirite? I remember once posting that I tried a jalapeno and pineapple pizza once and enjoyed it. Your only response was the :flamer: emoji. That got a good laugh out of me.

 

[Gary K]

This myth that Ben Franklin was a womanizer is just that: purely myth. No responsible historian has ever reported such. This is nothing more than the left's agenda to destroy the reputations of the founding father's and through that move us away from our historical Christian roots. I've read all of the available writings of Ben Franklin and he was a highly moral man with a deep faith in God. No secularist would have written, said, or acted as he did. I've also read most of the very highly respected biographies written about Franklin and these types of accusations against Franklin were revealed in none of them.

The following link is really good at debunking these falsehoods.

http://atruerepublic.blogspot.com/2012/04/un-writing-re-written-history-benjamin.html

 

[Gary K]

Are cops trigger-happy? Without a doubt some are. And without a doubt some are still the protectors and defenders of the public. Yes, the MSM likes to portray all cops as evil and destroy public confidence in the police, but there are a lot of power mad individuals in police uniform too.

My personal experience with cops is both good and bad. I've had a sheriff's deputy let me go with a verbal warning when he could have thrown the book at me and locked me up. I've had a stater let me go when he had a warrant for my arrest on an unpaid traffic ticket and I was living out of state. I've also had police officers harrass me for no good reason. I've had them want to search my car for no reason when I was pulled over changing a flat tire. I've had another berate me for not pulling over for some supposed hand signal he made. I say supposed because I was looking at him and saw no signal whatsoever.

That said, all my positive interactions with police took place between 35 and 45 years ago, and all my negative ones in the last decade. It's odd too because I was basically an outlaw during those years and have been strictly law abiding for the last 25 years. Then I had hair down to my shoulders and lived on the fringes of society. Now I both look and live respectably.

 

[Town Heretic]

Are cops trigger-happy? Without a doubt some are.

But most are just people doing a really tough job and trying to get home intact afterward.

And without a doubt some are still the protectors and defenders of the public.

Some really great people there.

Yes, the MSM

Complete invention of the paranoia sold by the hard right to whip up the base. An important part of the victim mentality that fuels it, the underdog mindset and faith, evidenced even with both houses of Congress and the presidency in pocket. There are numerous outlets that aren't working a concerted angle and a few with obvious agendas, like MSNBC or Fox News. The rest...sure, some demonize. I think most simply report. The problem with CNN and Fox is that they're more than news outlets. They're 24 hr a day programming that largely stretches beyond news and that tends to advance other agendas.

My personal experience with cops is both good and bad. I've had a sheriff's deputy let me go with a verbal warning when he could have thrown the book at me and locked me up. I've had a stater let me go when he had a warrant for my arrest on an unpaid traffic ticket and I was living out of state. I've also had police officers harrass me for no good reason. I've had them want to search my car for no reason when I was pulled over changing a flat tire. I've had another berate me for not pulling over for some supposed hand signal he made. I say supposed because I was looking at him and saw no signal whatsoever.

You definitely get both in the stream of public service. I've worked with and dealt with a great many during my years as an attorney. My overall impression is of mostly solid people in a very stressful, paranoia producing environment doing the best they can to both protect and serve. It's harder these days because so much of the respect for institutions we once carried as a part of citizenship is now read as naivete and officers are often in a position where they are safer assuming the worst read in, sadly.

 

[Zeke]

I haven't had a traffic ticket in 20 years. I'm a white guy in an affluent neighborhood driving a nice car with no points on my record. When I get pulled over I'm friendly and respectful and the tell me to slow down or stop a little bit longer at the stop sign or get my tail light fixed and they send me on my way. They don't even write it up because I'm not a dirtbag. Or at least I don't look or act like one.



I'd like a state bureaucracy where the checkers don't work with the subject officers on a day to day basis. And I'm talking about shootings and deaths in custody. Not every little complaint although you could use that to gather all the data on all the cops in one place. Is there some reason we shouldn't gather the data all in one place?




Who don't know the Officer or work in the same region.




Teaching people how to behave towards a cop who's asking you for I.D.?


They have to recruit from the Human race and we don't pay them so great.


I want Our cops to be supported and have the oversight they need to trust in the system. I also see that a lot of people don't understand what's expected of them when they have contact with the Police.

If you the "legal person signed the contract" then you should be liable for keeping its rules and have its ID at the ready to show to its policy enforcement officers, even though most are ignorant of its full content and jurisdictional powers it can legally bind you with, good behavior is the for the most part a deterrent to being abused by them, unless they have mistaken a freeborn for a legal person then the lawful jurisdiction over them concerning unalienable rights comes unto to the stage. The police are also kept in ignorance concerning the boundaries they can cross concerning juristic persons vs those no longer under contractual obligations, providing the legal systems job security like the drug war was to drugs, which is what the whole system is built on.

 

[fool]

If you the "legal person signed the contract" then you should be liable for keeping its rules and have its ID at the ready to show to its policy enforcement officers, even though most are ignorant of its full content and jurisdictional powers it can legally bind you with, good behavior is the for the most part a deterrent to being abused by them, unless they have mistaken a freeborn for a legal person then the lawful jurisdiction over them concerning unalienable rights comes unto to the stage. The police are also kept in ignorance concerning the boundaries they can cross concerning juristic persons vs those no longer under contractual obligations, providing the legal systems job security like the drug war was to drugs, which is what the whole system is built on.

You're one of those "Sovereign Citizens" aren't you?

 

[john w]

My evidence:

 

[Zeke]

You're one of those "Sovereign Citizens" aren't you?

Disinfo! no citizen can be a Sovereign, they only have inalienable rights given by their Creator the legal system/alias sleepy babyland dead spiritually Galatians 4:1 OT, The living have unalienable rights given to them by birthright from their Spiritual Father NT who can run their own Lawful affairs and experience real liberty a citizen only gets a taste of, been there you can have it. .

Got ID? better not leave home without it.

 

[The Barbarian]

This myth that Ben Franklin was a womanizer is just that: purely myth. No responsible historian has ever reported such. This is nothing more than the left's agenda to destroy the reputations of the founding father's and through that move us away from our historical Christian roots. I've read all of the available writings of Ben Franklin and he was a highly moral man with a deep faith in God.

With at least one child conceived out of wedlock. Didn't know that, did you? William Franklin was the offspring of Ben Franklin and an unknown woman. He was raised by Deborah Reed, another of Franklin's lovers, who eventually became his common-law wife.

When Franklin returns home after two years away, he professes guilt for having stranded Deborah, but that doesn't stop him from cavorting about town and, as he puts it, frequenting "low Women."

By 1730, Franklin decides he is ready for marriage. Though not his first choice, the stolidly middle-class Deborah seems a good "helpmate." When they hear rumors of her wayward husband's death, Deborah moves in with Ben, accepts his recently born illegitimate offspring William as her stepson and takes on the mantle of Mrs. Franklin. It is a common-law union never recorded in church for fear of bigamy charges, but it prospers. While her husband nurtures his publications, she runs their store, selling everything from writing materials to tea and coffee to a well-known homemade ointment for "the itch." They had two children, a boy who died of smallpox at age 5 and a girl Sarah, known as Sally, who outlived both her parents.
http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1005155,00.html

No secularist would have written, said, or acted as he did.

I've known both Christians and secularists who have done that sort of thing. Franklin was apparently quite the ladies man.

He was pursued by a lot of females when he was U.S. ambassador to France; although he played up the licentiousness for political purposes (the French court was at that time quite sexual) not all of it was for show.

 

[The Berean]

Hello, The Berean. I remember you as well. One of my favorite posters from back in the day. A hispanic guy who lives near San Jose, amirite? I remember once posting that I tried a jalapeno and pineapple pizza once and enjoyed it. Your only response was the :flamer: emoji. That got a good laugh out of me.

Yes, you are correct, SUTG. I'm still Hispanic and still I live in Silicon Valley.

 

[Gary K]

With at least one child conceived out of wedlock. Didn't know that, did you? William Franklin was the offspring of Ben Franklin and an unknown woman. He was raised by Deborah Reed, another of Franklin's lovers, who eventually became his common-law wife.

When Franklin returns home after two years away, he professes guilt for having stranded Deborah, but that doesn't stop him from cavorting about town and, as he puts it, frequenting "low Women."

By 1730, Franklin decides he is ready for marriage. Though not his first choice, the stolidly middle-class Deborah seems a good "helpmate." When they hear rumors of her wayward husband's death, Deborah moves in with Ben, accepts his recently born illegitimate offspring William as her stepson and takes on the mantle of Mrs. Franklin. It is a common-law union never recorded in church for fear of bigamy charges, but it prospers. While her husband nurtures his publications, she runs their store, selling everything from writing materials to tea and coffee to a well-known homemade ointment for "the itch." They had two children, a boy who died of smallpox at age 5 and a girl Sarah, known as Sally, who outlived both her parents.
http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1005155,00.html



I've known both Christians and secularists who have done that sort of thing. Franklin was apparently quite the ladies man.

He was pursued by a lot of females when he was U.S. ambassador to France; although he played up the licentiousness for political purposes (the French court was at that time quite sexual) not all of it was for show.

You actually expect me to accept Time as a credible source? Sorry, that is the same as no source at all to me. And as to your assertions of Franklin in France, well, I have seen that debunked too many times to believe that. It's more of the same old, same old, from the left wing wanting to discredit and destroy the reputations of our founders so they can separate the US from it's roots. I'm way too well informed on the socialist agenda to buy any of it. You're talking into my stone deaf left ear.

 

[The Barbarian]

You actually expect me to accept Time as a credible source?

They have a bit more credibility than you do, but there are plenty of other sources from the literature, if you like.

It's a fact. No one doubts that Franklin had a number of lovers, as he acknowledged. His son, born out of wedlock was accepted by him as a son.

Benjamin Franklin was a lover of knowledge; after all, he was the quintessential Renaissance man. He gave us the lightening rod, the Franklin stove, bifocals, and Poor Richard's Almanack. He was also an indispensable politician and civic activist who not only helped lay the groundwork for the Declaration of Independence and the United States Constitution but was also the country's first ambassador to France.

But dig a little deeper in the history books, and you may be surprised to find that the genteel, wise, and portly old Franklin had an incontrollable weakness for the opposite sex. As a teenager, he made advances towards his good friend's mistress (yes, that was the end of their friendship), and let's not forget in his early 20s, he fathered an illegitimate child whom his wife, Rebecca, would eventually help raise.

Franklin's libido was apparently so strong, he himself was scared of it. In his autobiography, he confessed: "the hard-to-be-governed passion of my youth had hurried me frequently into intrigues with low women that fell in my way."Benjamin Franklin was a lover of knowledge; after all, he was the quintessential Renaissance man. He gave us the lightening rod, the Franklin stove, bifocals, and Poor Richard's Almanack. He was also an indispensable politician and civic activist who not only helped lay the groundwork for the Declaration of Independence and the United States Constitution but was also the country's first ambassador to France.

But dig a little deeper in the history books, and you may be surprised to find that the genteel, wise, and portly old Franklin had an incontrollable weakness for the opposite sex. As a teenager, he made advances towards his good friend's mistress (yes, that was the end of their friendship), and let's not forget in his early 20s, he fathered an illegitimate child whom his wife, Rebecca, would eventually help raise.

Franklin's libido was apparently so strong, he himself was scared of it. In his autobiography, he confessed: "the hard-to-be-governed passion of my youth had hurried me frequently into intrigues with low women that fell in my way."
https://www.biography.com/news/benjamin-franklin-ladies-man-famous-love-affairs-video

Sorry, that is the same as no source at all to me. And as to your assertions of Franklin in France, well, I have seen that debunked too many times to believe that.

As I pointed out, a lot of it was publicity generated by Franklin himself, to be accepted in the French Court, which was very licentious. But not all of it. And his common-law marriage, numerous sexual adventures, and his illegitimate son are all matters he discussed in his autobiography.

As every good American student knows, Franklin was apprenticed to his half-brother James at the age of 12, published articles in the New England Courant by the age of 16, quarreled with his brother and came to Philadelphia in 1723 at the age of 17, was befriended by the governor of Pennsylvania, William Keith, who offered to set him up in a printing business. To that end, Franklin left for London in 1724 to buy printing equipment-but not before he had begun courting his future wife, Deborah Read, daughter of his Philadelphia landlord.

Franklin arrived in London on Christmas Eve at the age of 18. He was accompanied by his friend, James Ralph, a poet. Franklin and Ralph partied, ... around London for most of 1725. The friendship ended when Franklin made amatory advances to Ralph`s mistress; Ralph was so incensed that he cancelled a debt of 27 pounds he owed Franklin. Franklin returned to Philadelphia in 1726.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...richard-lucy-mercer-franklin-delano-roosevelt

"Advice to a Friend on Choosing a Mistress" is a letter by Benjamin Franklin dated June 25, 1745, in which Franklin counsels a young man about channeling sexual urges. Due to its licentious nature the letter was not published in collections of Franklin's papers in the United States during the 19th century. Federal court decisions from the mid- to late- 20th century cited the document as a reason for overturning obscenity laws.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advice_to_a_Friend_on_Choosing_a_Mistress

Warning, the Wiki article cites parts of Franklin's paper that you might find offensive.

It's more of the same old, same old, from the left wing wanting to discredit and destroy the reputations of our founders so they can separate the US from it's roots. I'm way too well informed on the socialist agenda to buy any of it. You're talking into my stone deaf left ear.

The founders were generally good, brilliant, and well-intentioned men. Like most of us, they weren't saints, and had the same sort of flaws the rest of us do.

If we deify them, we lose sight of the real issue. They were acutely aware of human frailty and designed our new nation with that in mind. They made treason really difficult to prove, and they limited the power of the executive precisely because they knew men like Trump would someday gain power.

They aren't plaster saints; they were men like we are, with good qualities and bad ones. We are blessed that so many bright and public-spirited people were there when we needed them. That's enough; don't make them into gods.

 

[Gary K]

They have a bit more credibility than you do, but there are plenty of other sources from the literature, if you like.

It's a fact. No one doubts that Franklin had a number of lovers, as he acknowledged. His son, born out of wedlock was accepted by him as a son.

Benjamin Franklin was a lover of knowledge; after all, he was the quintessential Renaissance man. He gave us the lightening rod, the Franklin stove, bifocals, and Poor Richard's Almanack. He was also an indispensable politician and civic activist who not only helped lay the groundwork for the Declaration of Independence and the United States Constitution but was also the country's first ambassador to France.

But dig a little deeper in the history books, and you may be surprised to find that the genteel, wise, and portly old Franklin had an incontrollable weakness for the opposite sex. As a teenager, he made advances towards his good friend's mistress (yes, that was the end of their friendship), and let's not forget in his early 20s, he fathered an illegitimate child whom his wife, Rebecca, would eventually help raise.

Franklin's libido was apparently so strong, he himself was scared of it. In his autobiography, he confessed: "the hard-to-be-governed passion of my youth had hurried me frequently into intrigues with low women that fell in my way."Benjamin Franklin was a lover of knowledge; after all, he was the quintessential Renaissance man. He gave us the lightening rod, the Franklin stove, bifocals, and Poor Richard's Almanack. He was also an indispensable politician and civic activist who not only helped lay the groundwork for the Declaration of Independence and the United States Constitution but was also the country's first ambassador to France.

But dig a little deeper in the history books, and you may be surprised to find that the genteel, wise, and portly old Franklin had an incontrollable weakness for the opposite sex. As a teenager, he made advances towards his good friend's mistress (yes, that was the end of their friendship), and let's not forget in his early 20s, he fathered an illegitimate child whom his wife, Rebecca, would eventually help raise.

Franklin's libido was apparently so strong, he himself was scared of it. In his autobiography, he confessed: "the hard-to-be-governed passion of my youth had hurried me frequently into intrigues with low women that fell in my way."
https://www.biography.com/news/benjamin-franklin-ladies-man-famous-love-affairs-video



As I pointed out, a lot of it was publicity generated by Franklin himself, to be accepted in the French Court, which was very licentious. But not all of it. And his common-law marriage, numerous sexual adventures, and his illegitimate son are all matters he discussed in his autobiography.

As every good American student knows, Franklin was apprenticed to his half-brother James at the age of 12, published articles in the New England Courant by the age of 16, quarreled with his brother and came to Philadelphia in 1723 at the age of 17, was befriended by the governor of Pennsylvania, William Keith, who offered to set him up in a printing business. To that end, Franklin left for London in 1724 to buy printing equipment-but not before he had begun courting his future wife, Deborah Read, daughter of his Philadelphia landlord.

Franklin arrived in London on Christmas Eve at the age of 18. He was accompanied by his friend, James Ralph, a poet. Franklin and Ralph partied, ... around London for most of 1725. The friendship ended when Franklin made amatory advances to Ralph`s mistress; Ralph was so incensed that he cancelled a debt of 27 pounds he owed Franklin. Franklin returned to Philadelphia in 1726.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...richard-lucy-mercer-franklin-delano-roosevelt

"Advice to a Friend on Choosing a Mistress" is a letter by Benjamin Franklin dated June 25, 1745, in which Franklin counsels a young man about channeling sexual urges. Due to its licentious nature the letter was not published in collections of Franklin's papers in the United States during the 19th century. Federal court decisions from the mid- to late- 20th century cited the document as a reason for overturning obscenity laws.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advice_to_a_Friend_on_Choosing_a_Mistress

Warning, the Wiki article cites parts of Franklin's paper that you might find offensive.



The founders were generally good, brilliant, and well-intentioned men. Like most of us, they weren't saints, and had the same sort of flaws the rest of us do.

If we deify them, we lose sight of the real issue. They were acutely aware of human frailty and designed our new nation with that in mind. They made treason really difficult to prove, and they limited the power of the executive precisely because they knew men like Trump would someday gain power.

They aren't plaster saints; they were men like we are, with good qualities and bad ones. We are blessed that so many bright and public-spirited people were there when we needed them. That's enough; don't make them into gods.

1. I have Ben Franklin's autobiography, have read it multiple times, and what you assert is in there is not in it.

2. Let's look at what your claims are for Franklin's letter of June 25, 1745. Here's the very first paragraph of the letter.

MY DEAR FRIEND:-
I know of no Medicine fit to diminish the violent natural inclination you mention; and if I did, I think I should
not communicate it to you. Marriage is the proper Remedy. It is the most natural State of Man, and therefore the
State in which you will find solid Happiness. Your Reason against entering into it at present appears to be not
well founded. The Circumstantial Advantages you have in View by Postponing it, are not only uncertain, but
they are small in comparison with the Thing itself, the being married and settled. It is the Man and Woman
united that makes the complete Being. Separate she wants his force of Body and Strength of Reason; he her Soft-
ness, Sensibility and acute Discernment. Together they are most likely to succeed in the World. A single Man
has not nearly the Value he would have in that State of Union. He is an incomplete Animal. He resembles the
odd Half of a Pair of Scissors.

The letter ends like this:

Thus much for my Paradox. But still I advise you to marry immediately; being sincerely

Apparently truth has little to do with your agenda. You paint Ben Franklin in terms of the carnival fun house mirrors that distort reality to the point where it is barely recognizable. The entire context of the letter is to not use women for the young man's sexual gratification but to marry. The rest is pretty much tongue-in-cheek advice to get an old girl friend because all women look alike in the dark. Any man who has ever been young knows that no young man is going to go looking for an old, grey-haired woman with a wrinkled face and body for a girl friend. So all of this is designed to discourage him from playing around sexually and to push him towards getting married. And, Franklin points out the harm having a young girlfriend could cause, and the bitter self condemnation that is likely to arise from a course of using a young woman for his sexual gratification.

3. Ben Franklin quarrelled with his brother, but why? Because his brother was abusing him, taking advantage of him, and treating him as if he was an imbecile. he gave Franklin no respect at all. He was so angry at Ben for writing the Silence Dogood letters he even further limited Ben's ability to do anything comparable with Ben's talent. It was pure jealousy on Ben's brother's part for he benefitted from those letters financially as they increased the circulation of his newspaper.

4. Apparently you've never read the Silence Dogood letters. If you had you would know much of what Franklin wrote and said in the public sphere was tongue-in-cheek. He was very good at lampooning human nature and to take everything he said at face value is just plain stupid.

5. I've read the letters Franklin wrote to one of the women in France who people like you claim was his mistress over there. There is nothing in them when a person considers Franklin's ability to write tongue-in-cheek letters. He was not participating in the licentiousness of the French court. A lot of women set their caps for him over there, but there is no real evidence that he succombed to any of it.

6. Your assertions about Franklin during his first trip to London are outright lies. Here's what he says in his autobiography in the chapter on his first trip to London at age 18.:

In our house there lodg’d a young woman, a milliner, who, I think, had a shop in the Cloisters. She had been genteelly bred, was sensible and lively, and of most pleasing conversation. Ralph read plays to her in the evenings, they grew intimate, she took another lodging, and he followed her. They liv’d together some time; but, he being still out of business, and her income not sufficient to maintain them with her child, he took a resolution of going from London, to try for a country school, which he thought himself well qualified to undertake, as he wrote an excellent hand, and was a master of arithmetic and accounts. This, however, he deemed a business below him, and confident of future better fortune, when he should be unwilling to have it known that he once was so meanly employed, he changed his name, and did me the honour to assume mine; for I soon after had a letter from him, acquainting me that he was settled in a small village (in Berkshire, I think it was, where he taught reading and writing to ten or a dozen boys, at sixpence each per week), recommending Mrs. T—— to my care, and desiring me to write to him, directing for Mr. Franklin, schoolmaster, at such a place.

He continued to write frequently, sending me large specimens of an epic poem which he was then composing, and desiring my remarks and corrections. These I gave him from time to time, but endeavour’d rather to discourage his proceeding. One of Young’s Satires[41] was then just published. I copy’d and sent him a great part of it, which set in a strong light the folly of pursuing the Muses with any hope of advancement by them. All was in vain; sheets of the poem continued to come by every post. In the meantime, Mrs. T——, having on his account lost her friends and business, was often in distresses, and us’d to send for me and borrow what I could spare to help her out of them. I grew fond of her company, and, being at that time under no religious restraint, and presuming upon my importance to her, I attempted familiarities (another erratum) which she repuls’d with a proper resentment, and acquainted him with my behaviour. This made a breach between us; and, when he returned again to London, he let me know he thought I had cancell’d all the obligations he had been under to me. So I found I was never to expect his repaying me what I lent to him or advanc’d for him. This, however, was not then of much consequence, as he was totally unable; and in the loss of his friendship I found myself relieved from a burthen. I now began to think of getting a little money beforehand, and, expecting better work, I left Palmer’s to work at Watts’s, near Lincoln’s Inn Fields, a still greater printing-house.[42] Here I continued all the rest of my stay in London.

This guy was married to another woman when he took the same ship with Franklin to the London. He constantly borrowed money from Franklin and then tried to weasel out of paying it. So, it wasn't Franklin who was the one doing all the playing around. It was the same guy you say Franklin wronged. And Franklin acknowledges that he made a moral lapse in judgment in making an advance, he doesn't say having an affair with, to what he rightly saw as a loose woman due to not having any religious constraints on him at the time. The facts are just the opposite of what you claim. This entire incident points to Franklin having become a deeply moral and religious man as he matured. His autobiography very definitely shows this transition in his life. To take one incident in his life that happened at age 18 and then paint the rest of his life as being the same is despicable. It is nothing more than character assassination.

7. There is a chapter in Franklin's autobiography titled "Plan for Attaining Moral Perfection" and he made this plan while still a young man sometime close to 1730 according to him. Here's the first two paragraphs and the list of virtues he wanted to achieve.

It was about this time I conceived the bold and arduous project of arriving at moral perfection. I wish’d to live without committing any fault at any time; I would conquer all that either natural inclination, custom, or company might lead me into. As I knew, or thought I knew, what was right and wrong, I did not see why I might not always do the one and avoid the other. But I soon found I had undertaken a task of more difficulty than I had imagined.[66] While my care was employ’d in guarding against one fault, I was often surprised by another; habit took the advantage of inattention; inclination was sometimes too strong for reason. I concluded, at length, that the mere speculative conviction that it was our interest to be completely virtuous, was not sufficient to prevent our slipping; and that the contrary habits must be broken, and good ones acquired and established, before we can have any dependence on a steady, uniform rectitude of conduct. For this purpose I therefore contrived the following method.

In the various enumerations of the moral virtues I had met with in my reading, I found the catalogue more or less numerous, as different writers included more or fewer ideas under the same name. Temperance, for example, was by some confined to eating and drinking, while by others it was extended to mean the moderating every other pleasure, appetite, inclination, or passion, bodily or mental, even to our avarice and ambition. I propos’d to myself, for the sake of clearness, to use rather more names, with fewer ideas annex’d to each, than a few names with more ideas; and I included under thirteen names of virtues all that at that time occurr’d to me as necessary or desirable, and annexed to each a short precept, which fully express’d the extent I gave to its meaning.

These names of virtues, with their precepts, were:

1. Temperance

Eat not to dullness; drink not to elevation.

2. Silence.

Speak not but what may benefit others or yourself; avoid trifling conversation.

3. Order.

Let all your things have their places; let each part of your business have its time.

4. Resolution.

Resolve to perform what you ought; perform without fail what you resolve.

5. Frugality.

Make no expense but to do good to others or yourself; i. e., waste nothing.

6. Industry.

Lose no time; be always employ’d in something useful; cut off all unnecessary actions.

7. Sincerity.

Use no hurtful deceit; think innocently and justly; and, if you speak, speak accordingly.

8. Justice.

Wrong none by doing injuries, or omitting the benefits that are your duty.

9. Moderation.

Avoid extreams; forbear resenting injuries so much as you think they deserve.

10. Cleanliness.

Tolerate no uncleanliness in body, cloaths, or habitation.

11. Tranquillity.

Be not disturbed at trifles, or at accidents common or unavoidable.

12. Chastity.

13. Humility.

7. You have done nothing but make an outrageous attack on Ben Franklin's character. It's despicable in both intent and execution. Are you so arrogant that you think you can just lie with impunity? Or is it that you are so eager to see wrong in the founding fathers of the US because of your political proclivities that you are willing to repeat every lie you read without any attempt to see if what is said is true or not? Either way it doesn't reflect well on you.

 

[The Barbarian]

1. I have Ben Franklin's autobiography, have read it multiple times, and what you assert is in there is not in it.

I find multiple reliable sources to be more credible than your say-so.

I've read the letters Franklin wrote to one of the women in France who people like you claim was his mistress over there.

Which woman did I say was his mistress over there? You just made that up, you?

There is nothing in them when a person considers Franklin's ability to write tongue-in-cheek letters. He was not participating in the licentiousness of the French court.

I pointed out that he was playing up his amorous activities to make them seem more than they were, specifically for political reasons. It's very true.

Your assertions about Franklin during his first trip to London are outright lies.

I'm just showing you what historians have found in his own accounts.

This guy was married to another woman when he took the same ship with Franklin to the London. He constantly borrowed money from Franklin and then tried to weasel out of paying it.

He never paid it. He was infuriated that Franklin propositioned his mistress.

So, it wasn't Franklin who was the one doing all the playing around.

Not for lack of trying, it seems.

It was the same guy you say Franklin wronged. And Franklin acknowledges that he made a moral lapse in judgment in making an advance

Franklin often deplored his failures. This was no different.

he doesn't say having an affair with, to what he rightly saw as a loose woman due to not having any religious constraints on him at the time.

That doesn't make it all right. And even if it did, it shows Franklin's willingness to engage in that sort of thing, which is the point in his autobiography.

This entire incident points to Franklin having become a deeply moral and religious man as he matured.

His autobiography shows him to have been moral and religious before he engaged in that behavior. He had some flaws, being charming and liking the ladies was an unfortunate combination, which as you know led him into fathering a child out of wedlock and assuming a common-law marriage.

There is a chapter in Franklin's autobiography titled "Plan for Attaining Moral Perfection" and he made this plan while still a young man sometime close to 1730 according to him.

It failed to stop him from propositioning his friend's mistress, or from fathering a child with an unknown woman.

You have done nothing but make an outrageous attack on Ben Franklin's character.

I regard Franklin as one of the greatest of our founders. He's known in the rest of the world,(rightly so) as one of the greatest scientists of all time. Remember, there were other founders, such as Jefferson, who had affairs and fathered illegitimate children. Franklin wasn't unique. That he had this flaw only shows that he was human and a sinner like every other one of us.

Calm yourself and think about this. As you must surely realize, Franklin's own admissions show that his youthful plan for moral perfection did not completely work. The founders weren't angels; they were human like us.

Be happy that their wisdom and foresight has served us so well. Don't demand perfection of them.

 

[Gary K]

Let's look at part of Franklin's own devotionals, which he wrote himself expressing his own beliefs and morality.

O wise God, . My good Father, . Thou beholdest the Sincerity of my Heart, . And of my Devotion; . Grant me a Continuance of thy Favour! .
(1) Powerful Goodness, &c. O Creator, O Father, I believe that thou art Good, and that thou art pleas'd with the Pleasure of thy Children. Praised be thy Name for Ever.

(2) By thy Power hast thou made the glorious Sun, with his attending Worlds; from the Energy of thy mighty Will they first received their prodigious Motion, and by thy Wisdom hast thou prescribed the wondrous Laws by which they move. Praised be thy Name for ever. .
(3) By thy Wisdom hast thou formed all Things, Thou hast created Man, bestowing Life and Reason, and plac'd him in Dignity superior to thy other earthly Creatures. Praised be thy Name for ever.

(4) Thy Wisdom, thy Power, and thy GOODNESS are every where clearly seen; in the Air and in the Water, in the Heavens and on the Earth; Thou providest for the various winged Fowl, and the innumerable Inhabitants of the Water; Thou givest Cold and Heat, Rain and Sunshine in their Season, and to the Fruits of the Earth Increase. Praised be thy Name for ever.

(5) I believe thou hast given Life to thy Creatures that they might Live, and art not delighted with violent Death and bloody Sacrifices. Praised be thy Name for Ever.

(6) Thou abhorrest in thy Creatures Treachery and Deceit, Malice, Revenge, Intemperance and every other hurtful Vice; but Thou art a Lover of Justice and Sincerity, of Friendship, Benevolence and every Virtue. Thou art my Friend, my Father, and my Benefactor. Praised be thy Name, O God, for Ever.

Here is more of his personal devotionals.

In as much as by Reason of our Ignorance We cannot be Certain that many Things Which we often hear mentioned in the Petitions of Men to the Deity, would prove REAL GOODS if they were in our Possession, and as I have Reason to hope and believe that the Goodness of my Heavenly Father will not withold from me a suitable Share of Temporal Blessings, if by a VIRTUOUS and HOLY Life I merit his Favour and Kindness, Therefore I presume not to ask such Things, but rather Humbly, and with a sincere Heart express my earnest Desires that he would graciously assist my Continual Endeavours and Resolutions of eschewing Vice and embracing Virtue; Which kind of Supplications will at least be thus far beneficial, as they remind me in a solemn manner of my Extensive DUTY.
That I may be preserved from Atheism and Infidelity, Impiety and Profaneness, and in my Addresses to Thee carefully avoid Irreverence and Ostentation, Formality and odious Hypocrisy, Help me, O Father
That I may be loyal to my Prince, and faithful to my Country, careful for its Good, valiant in its Defence, and obedient to its Laws, abhorring Treason as much as Tyranny, Help me, O Father
That I may to those above me be dutiful, humble, and submissive, avoiding Pride, Disrespect and Contumacy, Help me, O Father
That I may to those below me, be gracious, Condescending and Forgiving, using Clemency, protecting Innocent Distress, avoiding Cruelty, Harshness and Oppression, Insolence and unreasonable Severity, Help me, O Father

That I may refrain from Calumny and Detraction; that I may avoid and abhor Deceit and Envy, Fraud, Flattery and Hatred, Malice, Lying and Ingratitude, Help me, O Father
That I may be sincere in Friendship, faithful in Trust, and impartial in Judgment, watchful against Pride, and against Anger (that momentary Madness), Help me, O Father
That I may be just in all my Dealings and temperate in my Pleasures, full of Candour and Ingenuity, Humanity and Benevolence, Help me, O Father
That I may be grateful to my Benefactors and generous to my Friends, exerting Charity and Liberality to the Poor, and Pity to the Miserable, Help me, O Father
That I may avoid Avarice, Ambition, and Intemperance, Luxury and Lasciviousness, Help me, O Father
That I may possess Integrity and Evenness of Mind, Resolution in Difficulties, and Fortitude under Affliction; that I may be punctual in performing my Promises, peaceable and prudent in my Behaviour, Help me, O Father
That I may have Tenderness for the Weak, and a reverent Respect for the Ancient; That I may be kind to my Neighbours, good-natured to my Companions, and hospitable to Strangers, Help me, O Father

That I may be averse to Craft and Overreaching, abhor Extortion, Perjury, and every kind of Wickedness, Help me, O Father
That I may be honest and Openhearted, gentle, merciful and Good, chearful in Spirit, rejoicing in the Good of Others, Help me, O Father
That I may have a constant Regard to Honour and Probity; That I may possess a perfect Innocence and a good Conscience, and at length become Truly Virtuous and Magnanimous, Help me, Good God, Help me, O Father
And forasmuch as Ingratitude is one of the most odious of Vices, let me not be unmindful gratefully to acknoledge the Favours I receive from Heaven.

All of this he wrote as a young man. And he lived his life by this. None of this is the heart expression of a man who indulged his passions. Everything he wrote says he was a man who kept his passions in check from his early 20s onward, and his time in France was long after the his twenties.

You can keep on believing the lies of leftists who love destroying the reputations of our founding fathers, but I will keep on showing the evidence from Franklin himself that it is all fantasy and hatred of a good man with a highly moral character.

I pretty much have to laugh that I can quote from Franklin's autobiography and you'll dismiss it in favor of people who just make up what they say as they go along. It's plain to me that if you have read Franklin's autobiography you have dismissed it as a pack of lies because of what you choose to believe. The fact that his contemporaries held him in great esteem for his honesty, brains, compassion, and exemplary life is meaningless to you. All you want to do is smear his character.

 

[The Barbarian]

You can keep on believing the lies of leftists who love destroying the reputations of our founding fathers, but I will keep on showing the evidence from Franklin himself that it is all fantasy and hatred of a good man with a highly moral character.

You don't seem to be able to think rationally about this issue. I regard Franklin as one of the greatest of the founders of our nation. But I'm not blind about his faults, which he himself admitted. Don't try to make a plaster saint of him. He was a great and good man with flaws. Most of us are more flawed then he was.

That he indulged in premarital and extramarital sex is not unique among the founders. Let it go.

 

[Gary K]

I have something to say about Hitler sending all homosexuals to the concetration camps.

One of his closest advisors, Herman Goering, was a flaming homosexual. He wore pink uniforms, dressed in drag, painted his nails, and more. And he did this openly. There was no way Hitler didn't know about this. And one of Hitler's early henchmen Ernst Rohm was another one who boldly proclaimed his homosexuality. It's true Hitler later killed him, but it wasn't because of his homosexuality. It was a purge of anyone who Hitler suspected might not be 100% personally loyal to him. Max Bielas, an administrator at the Treblinka death camp, kept a harem of little Jewish boys which he sexually abused. He built a house that looked like a doll house for them to live in right on the grounds of Treblinka. It doesn't get more open than that.

The OSS, the precursor of the CIA, believed Hitler himself was a homosexual. It said he surrounded himself with homosexuals. In fact, it says that 100% of his bodyguard were homosexuals.

Here's a link to the OSS report titled "Hitler Psychological Analysis and Reconstruction". http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/h/hitler-adolf/oss-papers/text/oss-profile-05-08.html

Barbarian just has no idea as to what he's talking about.