ARCHIVE: The "Great tribulation" and the Testimony of the Early Church Fathers

[Explosived]

I am looking for Jesus Christ not the tribulation

I am looking for Jesus Christ not the tribulation

The truth of the matter is that certain church reformers wrote:

"I believe that all the signs which are to precede the last days have already appeared. Let us not think that the coming of Christ is far off; let us look up with heads lifted up; let us expect our Redeemer's coming with longing . . ." -- Luther

"Scripture uniformly enjoins us to look with expectation for the advent of Christ." -- Calvin

"The Lord Jesus shall return, and that with expedition." -- Knox

 

[postrib]

Originally posted by Explosived
...I am looking for Jesus Christ not the tribulation...

Note that someone who believes the rapture is after the tribulation isn't looking for the tribulation instead of Christ, just as a pregnant woman isn't looking for birth pangs instead of the birth of her child, but they know what must come first (1 Peter 4:12-13). We Christians must go through the reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13). Christ's coming to gather us together must destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, compare Matthew 24:29-31).

 

[RightIdea]

I read all of the scripture you referenced, PostTrib, but I fail to see what any of it has to do with the Rapture. Indeed, almost all of the scripture you listed has absolutely nothing to do with the Rapture, since Paul is the only writer in the entire Bible who even mentions this event or prophecies concerning it. Because the Rapture was irrelevant to the Jews, is relevant only to the gentile Body of Christ.

 

[postrib]

Originally posted by RightIdea
...almost all of the scripture you listed has absolutely nothing to do with the Rapture...

Then what is the grace that we must hope to the end for which will be brought to us at the revelation of Jesus? "Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation (apokalupsis) of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 1:13).

"Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed (apokalupsis), ye may be glad also with exceeding joy" (1 Peter 4:12-13).

"That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing (apokalupsis) of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 1:7).

"So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming (apokalupsis) of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Corinthians 1:7).

"And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed (apokalupsis) from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe" (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10).

Who are the ones taken and the ones left when Jesus is revealed? "Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed (apokalupto). In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left" (Luke 17:30-36).

Could gathering together mean rapture in the context of Jesus' coming?

"The coming of our Lord... and by our gathering together unto him" (2 Thessalonians 2:1).

"The Son of man coming... and they shall gather together his elect" (Matthew 24:30-31).

Do the scriptures teach a 3rd coming, or a 2nd rapture of the church?

Could our "gathering together" in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 and Matthew 24:31 be the same as our being "caught up together" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17?

Originally posted by RightIdea
...the gentile Body of Christ...

Note that the church was begun by Israelites: "For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin" (Romans 11:1), and there still are a great many Jewish believers today: "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Corinthians 12:13).

 

[SOTK]

Preterists are just flat out wacky! :freak: What weird and perverted ideas!

This was an interesting thread to read through. There was some great truthsmacking in here. I have just recently started studying on this weird theology. Weird stuff!

 

[SOTK]

By the way, great debate on this topic as well. I read the whole thing late last night. I thought Jerry did a pretty decent job debating.

I wish I would have been at TOL when this was going on. I would have liked to participate in some of the hot threads back then!