ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 3

[Clete]

You won't explain it, because there is no way to adapt this Scripture to fit Open Theism. NO WAY!

Your posts have become totally anti-intellectual, and thereby substantially and totally illogical.

Nang

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

:mock:Nang

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

 

[Clete]

Voltaire isn't taking my word for anything, but asking you to back up your judgmental criticisms of those holding to the Reformed faith. Can you do that, apart from assertions, personal denials, and hateful ad hominem?

IOW's, can you answer an intelligent man on an intelligent level, as he deserves?

Show me an intelligent, intellectually honest Calvinist on this website and I'd be more than happy to engage in a conversation about any topic he wishes to discuss, as I have done so countless times on this website. (Most of which conversations are still here for anyone to read, by the way.)

Christians who profess faith in Christ and His Word. Persons who should be respected from all others who also profess to call on the name of Christ as their Lord.

You profess the wrong Jesus. I see no evidence that you are saved at all. You aren't even capable of thinking clearly much less having a substantive conversation about something as complex and detailed as Open Theism. I choose, therefore, to give you the benefit of the doubt and presume that you are unsaved and treat as such.

Clete, you bear false witness, which is an extremely serious sin.

You make me laugh every time you post. You don't even know what bearing false witness means!

:rotfl:

AMR and myself may not always be right, but we are not liars.

Don't be stupid. Oh, wait, you can't help it. It was predestined.

You are one of the most prolific liars I've ever come across, Nang!

We post our beliefs and our witness, with sincere hearts before you, others, and before the Lord God.

And, at the same time you say things that you know are not true! You do it all the time, Nang! Who exactly do you think you're talking too here?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[elected4ever]

Me personally, yes. I have been baptized into the Holy Spirit and He lives in me and through me.

That, however, is not what you were really asking me, was it.

God is able to be everywhere at once but is only in those places where He wants to be.

Nothing wrong with that answer in that God says so.

I agree. God is not ignorant of anything He wants to know but is not required to know anything that He does not want to know.

Oh, come-on Clete. We all know things that we don't wont to know so I am not sure of the second part of that statement. I think God does know. Even more factually that we know ourselves. Otherwise how could He judge rightly. God's intervention is a different matter than His knowledge.

I think that I disagree with this. The theological concepts of omniscience and omnipresence (and the other omni's and im's) are philosophical terms with very specific meanings and with very specific and far reaching implications that go far beyond whether or not God can relate to us and cares for us.

I'm sorry, I didn't know that you were saved with perfect knowledge and didn't have to change any of your views over the years. Maybe that you misunderstood what I was saying because I don't believe my first statement is true about you. I'll take the blame for saying something poorly.

Are you serious?
Any theological position that I hold which has not been Biblically established to my satisfaction (I can't think of any off the top of my head) I hold only very loosely until such time as either I or a teacher I trust does establish it with Scripture and sound reason. I cannot think of a single theological position that I hold to simply on the basis that I was taught it by "some supposed authority".

That is true now with you as it is with me but it was not so in the beginning. It was not so with you as it was not so with me. We tend to forget where we came from.

However, teaching is the role of a teacher and not all are given that particular spiritual gift. But just because a person is not a teacher doesn't give them the right to be intellectually lazy. At the very least they should hold their teacher's feet to the fire and demand that they teach properly. That is to say that they should teach not just the doctrine but the Biblical and rational basis of that doctrine.

Agreed but that doesn't stop our congregations from letting idiots teach Sunday School.

Now this I agree with entirely. Our flesh is the biggest obstacle to the understanding of God's Word.


Indeed.


I can not only tell but the difference astonishes me.

Intellectual honesty is so refreshing! :BRAVO:

Resting in Him,
Clete

I must say that TOL has been a big part of learning communication skills for me. Iron sharpens iron so to speak.

 

[penofareadywriter]

The Jews taught Open Theism?

Amazing . . .

I have never seen such teachings in the Old Testament Scriptures.

Can you point me to references?

Nang

I could be here all day.. but a few will have to suffice for now.

Genesis 6:7
"So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth--men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air--for I am grieved that I have made them." If God ETERNALLY knew, or worse, predestined that humanity would get this bad, how could He GENUINELY say He was SORRY for the way this thing turned out. That would be like you wanting a car with no engine, going out and buying a car with no engine and when you got it home, you get upset that the car you just bought has no engine! People may be capable of this but you would not call them infinitely wise!

Again..1 Samuel 15:11
"I am grieved that I have made Saul king, because he has turned away from me and has not carried out my instructions."

And again.. 1 Samuel 15:35
"And the LORD was grieved that he had made Saul king over Israel."

God HIMSELF speaks of the future in terms of openness...Exodus 33:5
"For the LORD had said to Moses, "Tell the Israelites, 'You are a stiff-necked people. If I were to go with you even for a moment, I might destroy you. Now take off your ornaments and I will DECIDE what to do with you.' "

I could keep going, but I like to hear your thoughts on these verses.

 

[Clete]

Nothing wrong with that answer in that God says so.

Be careful! Nang will consign you to Hell for saying such things.

Oh, come-on Clete. We all know things that we don't wont to know so I am not sure of the second part of that statement. I think God does know. Even more factually that we know ourselves. Otherwise how could He judge rightly. God's intervention is a different matter than His knowledge.

God knows what He wants to know but is not REQUIRED to know anything that He does not want to know for whatever reason.

God isn't stupid. He isn't going to deprive Himself of knowledge that He is in need of for whatever reason but He isn't a slave that must keep track of every piece of minutia in the whole history of existence as the Calvinist would have you believe.

I'm sorry, I didn't know that you were saved with perfect knowledge and didn't have to change any of your views over the years. Maybe that you misunderstood what I was saying because I don't believe my first statement is true about you. I'll take the blame for saying something poorly.

What? This response made no sense to me. It doesn't seem to be a response to what I said.

That is true now with you as it is with me but it was not so in the beginning. It was not so with you as it was not so with me. We tend to forget where we came from.

What does that have to do with anything? The point was that we should simply accept a teaching because its being taught by someone we like or admire.

Agreed but that doesn't stop our congregations from letting idiots teach Sunday School.

Again, what does this have to do with anything that we were talkgin about?
This conversation is confusing.

I must say that TOL has been a big part of learning communication skills for me. Iron sharpens iron so to speak

I'm a much better typist than I used to be!

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Nang]

Be careful! Nang will consign you to Hell for saying such things.

Nang has NEVER taken it upon herself to consign another to Hell, for any reason, and you bear false witness against Nang to say so.

God alone is Determiner and Judge of such eternal matters.

Nang

 

[elected4ever]

Clete, Sense you have chosen to ignore what was said to you and have tried to change the subject because you didn't like the responses that I gave. I must consider you to have a settled theology with no possibility of learning or the admitting that your theology has changed over the years. I didn't know you were that insecure in yourself. My apologies for trying to have an honest conversation with you. I wont do that again. No one can have an honest conversation with you, only an argument. I will not argue with you ether. Your to shallow for that.

 

[Clete]

Clete, Sense you have chosen to ignore what was said to you and have tried to change the subject because you didn't like the responses that I gave.

Huh?

I didn't understand the responses you gave. I can't even remember right now what the heck we were even talking about.
Something about the omni attributes, I think. A topic I'm more than happy to discuss in great detail!

I must consider you to have a settled theology with no possibility of learning or the admitting that your theology has changed over the years.

My theology has changed over the years so many times I can't even count! What in the world are you talking about?

I didn't know you were that insecure in yourself. My apologies for trying to have an honest conversation with you.

You've lost your mind. It isn't my fault that you can't carry a rational conversation in a bucket.

I wont do that again. No one can have an honest conversation with you, only an argument. I will not argue with you ether. Your to shallow for that.

Oh, that's nice. Showing our true colors again are we e4e?

Your responses to me didn't make any sense and because I say so now I'm somehow the one who can't have an honest conversation? Heaven forbid anyone not understand your incoherent ramblings!

I think you must have forgotten to take your medication this morning. I suppose it was too much for me to expect that you had actually turned over a new leaf. You can take your version of honest conversation, roll it up real tight and sit on it for all I care. As can the rest of a jerks and idiots on this website.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

Nang has NEVER taken it upon herself to consign another to Hell, for any reason, and you bear false witness against Nang to say so.

You just did less than a weak ago on this very thread you lying cyst of decaying filth.

God alone is Determiner and Judge of such eternal matters.

Nang

Are you saying that people can believe that God is only in those places he chooses to be and still believe in the same God you believe in?

Or is it that you are saying that God can predestine the same person to both reject one of your precious omni doctrines and still be predestined for heaven?

If so, what did you mean a few posts back when you said that judgment day will not go well for him who rejects the omni doctrines?

Please feel free not to repsond to this post. I don't really care anything about what you say or believe. I only posted this because I know others will read it.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[chatmaggot]

The Jews taught Open Theism?

Amazing . . .

I have never seen such teachings in the Old Testament Scriptures.

Can you point me to references?

Nang

Jonah was an Open Theist wasn't he?

He was sent by God to tell a city that they were going to be destroyed. Eventually he went. Afterward the city repented and God did not destroy the city.

Jonah then became two things. First, he became mad (angry mad...not mid-acts MAD). Second, he became an Open Theist realizing that just because God says He is going to do something doesn't mean that He is going to do it.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Jonah then became two things. First, he became mad (angry mad...not mid-acts MAD). Second, he became an Open Theist realizing that just because God says He is going to do something doesn't mean that He is going to do it.

Jonah 4
1: But it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he was very angry.
2: And he prayed unto the LORD, and said, I pray thee, O LORD, was not this my saying, when I was yet in my country? Therefore I fled before unto Tarshish: for I knew that thou art a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repentest thee of the evil.


Jonah knew before he went to Nineveh that if they repented, God would not overthrow them. He wanted them to perish, so he fled.

 

[chatmaggot]

Jonah 4
1: But it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he was very angry.
2: And he prayed unto the LORD, and said, I pray thee, O LORD, was not this my saying, when I was yet in my country? Therefore I fled before unto Tarshish: for I knew that thou art a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repentest thee of the evil.


Jonah knew before he went to Nineveh that if they repented, God would not overthrow them. He wanted them to perish, so he fled.

So he was an Open Theist even before he left!

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

So he was an Open Theist even before he left!

However you want to look at it.

Do you think God knew they would repent if he sent Jonah?
God wasn't exactly in the habit of sending prophets to wicked Gentiles. Do you think Jonah/3 days in the fish's belly and the repentance of Nineveh was a type of something?

 

[chatmaggot]

However you want to look at it.

Do you think God knew they would repent if he sent Jonah?
God wasn't exactly in the habit of sending prophets to wicked Gentiles. Do you think Jonah/3 days in the fish's belly and the repentance of Nineveh was a type of something?

God told Jonah to tell the Ninevites:

"Forty more days and Nineveh will be overturned."

Why would God tell Jonah to preach that they will be overturned in 40 days, if He knew without a doubt that they would repent and He would not overturn them?

To me it only makes sense in light of Jeremiah

"O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter does?" declares the LORD...If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.

I know you know this verse...but in regards to Jonah I think it affirms the Open view. Jonah was mad because he knew that if they were to repent, then God would not destroy them as He said that He would do.

God said that He was going to do something...but if the circumstances changed...then God would change what He said He was going to do.

If God KNEW that they would repent then it appears He lied when He said that they would be overturned.

It's like this...

God says to Jonah "Tell the Ninevites that in 40 days they are going to be destroyed"...but God knew in fact that He wasn't going to destroy them.

Does that make God a liar if He said that He was going to do something if He already knew that He wasn't going to do it?

 

[penofareadywriter]

However you want to look at it.

Do you think God knew they would repent if he sent Jonah?
God wasn't exactly in the habit of sending prophets to wicked Gentiles. Do you think Jonah/3 days in the fish's belly and the repentance of Nineveh was a type of something?

So was God lieing when He said to Nineveh in Jonah 3:4
"Forty more days and Nineveh will be overturned."' ? If your position be correct, I would have to say you are getting way to close to there being dualism in God.

 

[penofareadywriter]

Nang has NEVER taken it upon herself to consign another to Hell, for any reason, and you bear false witness against Nang to say so.

God alone is Determiner and Judge of such eternal matters.

Nang

Hey, I would love to hear your thoughts on my post. #1904

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

I know you know this verse...but in regards to Jonah I think it affirms the Open view. Jonah was mad because he knew that if they were to repent, then God would not destroy them as He said that He would do.

God said that He was going to do something...but if the circumstances changed...then God would change what He said He was going to do.

God wasn't exactly in the habit of sending prophets to wicked Gentiles. Do you think Jonah/3 days in the fish's belly and the repentance of Nineveh was a type of something?


John 12
16: These things understood not his disciples at the first: but when Jesus was glorified, then remembered they that these things were written of him, and that they had done these things unto him.
17: The people therefore that was with him when he called Lazarus out of his grave, and raised him from the dead, bare record.
18: For this cause the people also met him, for that they heard that he had done this miracle.
19: The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.
20: And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship at the feast:
21: The same came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus.
22: Philip cometh and telleth Andrew: and again Andrew and Philip tell Jesus.
23: And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.
24: Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
25: He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
26: If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
27: Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.
28: Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.
29: The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.
30: Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
31: Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32: And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
33: This he said, signifying what death he should die.


Matthew 12
38: Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
39: But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40: For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
41: The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.


I think there's much more going on in the story of Jonah/Nineveh than God "changing his mind".


Much that God did in the Old Testament was for our learning and
for an example for us.


Romans 15
4: For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.


1 Corinthians 10
10: Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
11: Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

 

[penofareadywriter]

God wasn't exactly in the habit of sending prophets to wicked Gentiles. Do you think Jonah/3 days in the fish's belly and the repentance of Nineveh was a type of something?


John 12
16: These things understood not his disciples at the first: but when Jesus was glorified, then remembered they that these things were written of him, and that they had done these things unto him.
17: The people therefore that was with him when he called Lazarus out of his grave, and raised him from the dead, bare record.
18: For this cause the people also met him, for that they heard that he had done this miracle.
19: The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.
20: And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship at the feast:
21: The same came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus.
22: Philip cometh and telleth Andrew: and again Andrew and Philip tell Jesus.
23: And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.
24: Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
25: He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
26: If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
27: Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.
28: Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.
29: The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.
30: Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
31: Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32: And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
33: This he said, signifying what death he should die.


Matthew 12
38: Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
39: But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40: For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
41: The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.


I think there's much more going on in the story of Jonah/Nineveh than God "changing his mind".


Much that God did in the Old Testament was for our learning and
for an example for us.


Romans 15
4: For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.


1 Corinthians 10
10: Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
11: Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

I could not agree more! Its just that.... what is the lesson that we are to learn from the book of Johnah? I would argue, along with manny other respected biblical scholars, that the lesson or the point that we are to get from this story is presisely this; THAT THE FUTURE IS NOT exhaustive settled. God is FLEXIBLE in His sovernty.

This lesson is a strong motif throughout the Bible. Example, Jer. 18. 7-10"The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy [it,] 8 "if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 "And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant [it,] 10 "if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.
This is also, by the way, the lesson we are to learn from Rom. 9! (The vessels)

 

[godrulz]

So was God lieing when He said to Nineveh in Jonah 3:4
"Forty more days and Nineveh will be overturned."' ? If your position be correct, I would have to say you are getting way to close to there being dualism in God.

cf. Hezekiah. Either God is lying or the Open Theism view of a partially unsettled/open future is true.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

If your position be correct, I would have to say you are getting way to close to there being dualism in God.

Just curious, would you still believe in Jesus Christ had he not been born in Bethlehem as the prophet foretold?

After all, Joseph could have freely decided to stay in Nazareth until the child was born...or he could have freely decided to stay away from Bethlehem altogether, regardless of the census. This would have rendered the prophecy a failure.

What's your take?

For me, if the Lord had not been born in Bethlehem as fortetold by the prophet, I count him as an imposter.