ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 3

eveningsky339

New member
Knowledge, faith, love, and obedience are related, not mutually exclusive.:patrol:

Yes, but the most important by far is love.

Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.
1 John 4:8

I know many Christians who do not like this verse because it "limits God to one attribute". Too bad it's in the Bible. :think:
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Now one of the Pharisees invited Jesus to have dinner with him, so he went to the Pharisee's house and reclined at the table. When a woman who had lived a sinful life in that town learned that Jesus was eating at the Pharisee's house, she brought an alabaster jar of perfume, and as she stood behind him at his feet weeping, she began to wet his feet with her tears. Then she wiped them with her hair, kissed them and poured perfume on them.
When the Pharisee who had invited him saw this, he said to himself, "If this man were a prophet, he would know who is touching him and what kind of woman she is—that she is a sinner."

Jesus answered him, "Simon, I have something to tell you."

"Tell me, teacher," he said.

"Two men owed money to a certain moneylender. One owed him five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. Neither of them had the money to pay him back, so he canceled the debts of both. Now which of them will love him more?"

Simon replied, "I suppose the one who had the bigger debt canceled."


"You have judged correctly," Jesus said.

Then he turned toward the woman and said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I came into your house. You did not give me any water for my feet, but she wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. You did not give me a kiss, but this woman, from the time I entered, has not stopped kissing my feet. You did not put oil on my head, but she has poured perfume on my feet. Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven—for she loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little."

Then Jesus said to her, "Your sins are forgiven."

The other guests began to say among themselves, "Who is this who even forgives sins?"

Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."



Why does Jesus use Faith at the end instead of love?
Who are you asking/debating; me or the Apostle Paul?

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Who are you asking/debating; me or the Apostle Paul?

Resting in Him,
Clete

I am asking you.

Also, since E339 brought up 1 John 4:8 "God is love", how does this fit into your hate having to be a possibility belief, and how does hate having to be a possibility validate OVT?
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
I am asking you.

It isn't me you should be asking, its Paul, whom I quoted and to whom Bob was alluding.

As for me, I go with Paul.

Do you actually believe that they contradict or are you just being silly or what?

Also, since E339 brought up 1 John 4:8 "God is love", how does this fit into your hate having to be a possibility belief, and how does hate having to be a possibility validate OVT?
God is love because He chooses to be so. Otherwise, He would not be love, He'd be something else. I don't know what that something else would be but the whole concept of love implies choice. As such, you cannot have love without choice - period. Thus, the truth claim that God is Love, which I accept without caveat, implies that God is love because He chooses to be.

And as for how this applies to Open Theism, love, being the primary attribute of God and the primary purpose of man's existence, requires free will; free will requires choice; choice implies an undetermined (i.e. an open) future.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Yes, but the most important by far is love.


1 John 4:8

I know many Christians who do not like this verse because it "limits God to one attribute". Too bad it's in the Bible. :think:

There are a myriad of verses that give the full picture of God's attributes, character, and ways. God is spirit; God is light; God is love; faithful, powerful, holy, etc.

'God is spirit' is a metaphysical/ontological statement about His being. He is uncreated, personal, etc. (who He is; cannot change it).

God is loving, faithful, good, merciful, etc. are not 'being/stuff' statements, but in the philosophical moral category which is volitional, not abstract (God demonstrates His love...while we were yet sinners, He died for us...did not have to incarnate and die to express love). God is not selfish (the opposite of love is not so much hate as selfishness).
 
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Lon

Well-known member
Ditto when you attempt to define sovereignty:kiss:

What you find unpalatable is necessary discussion and essential to understanding God and ourselves.

There is a paradigm of truth/relationship that demands consideration for our balance of truth.

Truth without relationship is hard and relentless, cold and untrue.

Love without truth is universal feel-good heresy.

When we correct, address, debate, it is better received with loving concern and this is the Biblical directive: Speaking the truth in love, with all gentleness, accepting the weaker brother.

TOL's 'smack of truth' is most often truth without the relationship consideration: "You are an idiot!" "You are a moron." "You are stupid."

Those are infractions on the directives of the Father and abhorrent.

God's Sovereignty and Love cannot be dissected or divorced. His commands of our expression of truth/love issue from His nature. Be perfect as your Father is perfect.
 

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
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If a person cannot see what you see, give them a break if they are trying. I see no need to call people morons for disagreeing with you (you are not always right and have even changed your views making you a moron for believing different things when you change your views).

God does not have to do everything doable, but He is able to. I think omniscience is different since knowledge and ability are not identical.

If there is something knowable, God knows it by default, so 'no'. A 'yes' would be compromising even an OT understanding of omniscience (your minority view here is not representative of most).

The way God voluntarily self-limits the scope of His certain knowledge is to create a universe capable of uncertainties and contingencies. These things are inherently unknowable except as possible vs certain. This is not choosing to not know something knowable, but parallel to not being able to create square circles. The issue is logic (modal), not divine amnesia by choice (not possible). Odd how you say that we cannot not know Christ if we once knew Him (OSAS issues), yet you think God can have less than perfect knowledge by willing it?
I've given you all the breaks you're going to get from me. You're not trying to see anything. You're flat out refusing.

And your denial that God could choose to not know something is deplorable.
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
the versatility of Love...........

the versatility of Love...........

God is love because He chooses to be so.

God is Love because its his Nature, His very Being (God does not choose to BE what He already IS). Free will, choosing, desires, directives... flow from God's BEING as expressions of his creative desire to express, inter-relate, expand, evolve, grow, experience, experiment, etc.


Otherwise, He would not be love, He'd be something else. I don't know what that something else would be but the whole concept of love implies choice. As such, you cannot have love without choice - period. Thus, the truth claim that God is Love, which I accept without caveat, implies that God is love because He chooses to be.

See above. I do not see the logic of God choosing to Be what God already IS, for God is not 'choosing' to be Love, but naturally is expressing what He is BEING in 'relationship'.


And as for how this applies to Open Theism, love, being the primary attribute of God and the primary purpose of man's existence, requires free will; free will requires choice; choice implies an undetermined (i.e. an open) future.

True, Infinite Love is ever opening, expanding and evolving along with the free will choices of souls in an open-ended universe of unlimited potentials... towards a universal end, of greater perfection, experience, innovation and novelty.

However, as noted earlier,...I hold that the Ontology of Deity is ever what Deity IS. Love simply IS. Of course, Love is demonstrating itself thru 'freedom of choice' and co-operative relationships - unfoldings that are ever dynamic.







pj
 
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godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
I've given you all the breaks you're going to get from me. You're not trying to see anything. You're flat out refusing.

And your denial that God could choose to not know something is deplorable.


I was talking about your attitude to Lon.

Your affirmation of God choosing to not know something knowable is a denial of omniscience as defined by Open Theism and classical theism. You are left with a god who does not know things that Satan, men, books, etc. know.
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
insights in Omniscience.............

insights in Omniscience.............

Your affirmation of God choosing to not know something knowable is a denial of omniscience as defined by Open Theism and classical theism. You are left with a god who does not know things that Satan, men, books, etc. know.

Yes,...God is Omniscient, being LIGHT Itself! God fills the Immensity of Existence(space/time/eternity), as Omnipresence. Light which is all-knowing cannot choose to not to be what It IS. (just like in the last example shared on God being LOVE). God knows all that is Be-ing and Be-coming.

Indeed we presume that there is a 'creative-vaccum', as it were,....were all potentials are being generated into actuals...and it is in this 'space', where we assume that God does not know 'concretely' how these potentials will actualize, UNTIL they actually do in each present moment. - in this purivew we take into consideration the momentum of time and unfolding potentials AS they actualize, and assume that God does not know them as an actualized reality until they become 'true' in 'real time'. (this is putting the qualification of true knowledge within a timal sequence of things).

God then does not somehow 'choose not to know the future',..but if we take things into a time-relative sequence.....God cannot know them concretely UNTIL they actualize in real time. God certainly knows all potentials and possibilities that exist in any given moment, from this point of time to Infinity. So, God is knowing and 'coming to know' all that exists.

Knowledge is Be-ing and Be-coming...as all the potentials in the comsos actualize. This is the wonder of 'God' itself, as it unfolds the Great eternal Plan of Life and all its creative potential. Now consider this 'process' going on within INFINITY :)



pj
 

Lon

Well-known member
What do you understand about this passage?

Eze 1:1 And it happened in the thirtieth year, in the fourth month, in the fifth of the month, as I was among the captives by the river Chebar, the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God.
Eze 1:2 On the fifth of the month, the fifth year of King Jehoiachin's captivity,
Eze 1:3 Coming the Word of Jehovah became known to Ezekiel, the son of Buzi, the priest in the land of the Chaldeans by the river Chebar. And the hand of Jehovah was on him there.
Eze 1:4 And I looked, and behold, a windstorm came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire flashing itself, and a brightness to it all around, and out of its midst, like the color of polished bronze out of the middle of the fire.
Eze 1:5 Also out of its midst came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was how they looked; they had the likeness of a man.
Eze 1:6 And four faces were to each, and four wings to each.
Eze 1:7 And their feet were straight feet; and the sole of their feet was like the sole of a calf's foot. And they sparkled like the color of burnished copper.
Eze 1:8 And the hands of a man extended from under their wings on their four sides; and the four of them had their faces and their wings,
Eze 1:9 joining each one to the other by their wings. They did not turn in their going; each one went toward the front of their face.
Eze 1:10 And the likeness of their faces: the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side to the four of them; and the face of an ox on the left side to the four of them; and the face of an eagle to the four of them.
Eze 1:11 So their faces were. And their wings were stretched upward; to each, the two wings of each one were joined; and two wings covered their bodies.
Eze 1:12 And each went toward the front of their faces. To where the spirit was to go, there they went; they did not turn in their going.
Eze 1:13 And the likeness of the living creatures: they looked like burning coals of fire; like the appearance of torches. It was continually circling among the living creatures. And the fire was bright, and out of the fire went forth lightning.
Eze 1:14 And the living creatures kept running and returning, like the appearance of a flash of lightning.
Eze 1:15 And as I looked at the living creatures, behold, one wheel was on the earth by the living creatures, with its four faces.
Eze 1:16 The appearance of the wheels and their workmanship was the color of beryl, and the four of them had one likeness. And their appearance and their workmanship was like a wheel in the middle of a wheel.
Eze 1:17 When they went, they went on their four sides; and they did not turn when they went.
Eze 1:18 And their rims: they were even high; they were even awesome. And their rims were full of eyes all around the four of them.
Eze 1:19 And in the going of the living creatures, the wheels went beside them; and in the lifting up of the living creatures from the earth, the wheels were lifted up.
Eze 1:20 Wherever the spirit was to go, there they went; there the spirit was to go, and the wheels were lifted up along with them. For the spirit of the living creature was in the wheels.
Eze 1:21 In their going, these went; and in their standing still, these stood still. And in their lifting up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up along with them. For the spirit of the living creature was in the wheels.
Eze 1:22 And there was a likeness over the heads of the living creature; an expanse, like the color of awesome crystal stretched out over their heads from above.
Eze 1:23 And under the expanse their wings were straight, the one toward the other. Each one had two wings covering on this side, and to each two covering on that side of their bodies.
Eze 1:24 And I heard the sound of their wings, like the sound of great waters, like the voice of the Almighty, in their going was the sound of tumult, like the sound of an army. In their standing still, they let down their wings.
Eze 1:25 And there was a voice from the expanse which was over their heads, in their standing still, and they let down their wings.
Eze 1:26 And from above the expanse that was over their heads was a likeness like a sapphire stone, the likeness of a throne. And on the likeness of the throne was a likeness looking like a man on it from above.
Eze 1:27 And I saw Him looking like the color of polished bronze, looking like fire all around within it. From the likeness of His loins even upward, and from the likeness of His loins even downward, I saw Him, looking like fire, and it had brightness all around.
Eze 1:28 As the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain looks, so the brightness all around looked. This was how the likeness of the glory of Jehovah looked. And I saw. And I fell on my face, and I heard a voice of One speaking.

V28 and chapter 2 portray this vision as God, yet is a strange vision like one we have not seen before. What is it telling us about God?

Reread it with this question in mind. Scripture is the seat of our understanding. It is scripture, not Greeks, nor Americans, nor philosophers that theology should come.

A few questions for TOL and OV members:

How many times have you read your bible all the way through?

How well did you do in High School grammar with sentence diagramming?

How often do you pray?

What are the 5 most important directives from God for a Christian that you can think of off the bat that drive your life?
 

Lon

Well-known member
^Look! They are God's attributes from where we get omni's and they are blatant.

The reason I ask the other questions is because I get so frustrated with TOL™ Brand OT©

1) How many times have you personally read the Bible all the way through? It seems to me, people who don't read it shouldn't be playing this debate game and definitely shouldn't be asserting anything. You disqualify yourself and God will hold you personally accountable as He does me if we are not even commited to reading His word.

2) Sentence diagramming. For the most part, if you didn't do well in HS/Freshman College English, you are at best, asserting. Furthermore, if you don't have any foreign language experience, you are even somewhat handicapped in even the English language. And even further, you should divert sentence structure considerations for debate to one who aced sentence diagramming.

3) How often do you pray? I'm tired of debating wanna-be's. Do you pray every day? Do you commune with God? That's it in a nutshell. I'm more concerned about personal walks than particular brands of theology. I'm terribly concerned about theology as it relates to one's walk, but moving as well as thinking are part and parcel to orthodoxy. Walk the talk. Scripture warns, exhorts, demands that we debate graciously and gently. Shame on you who do not. It has nothing to do with Him or His kingdom if you do not do it His way. If you are vitriolic, you better have a compelling reason and it better be His direct leading or it is blatantly against scriptural directives to even loving graciously our enemies. Scripture is replete with such admonishments.

5 of your greatest concerns regarding Christian living:

These should come readily to mind or you and I are not purposefully living. We are going with the flow. We should, as those calling ourselves after His Name, have 5 (at least) purposeful well-thought-out goals that guide our lives.

At the top is the Great Command. How it trickles down to the rest of our life with the other points may vary a tad as respective to our temperments and gifts.

The Great command is "Love God with all you've got." The second is love one another with this same kind of intensity (where most of us struggle).

For me, I seek to Love God by spending time with Him each and everyday and trying to live with His presence in every moment of my day. In connection with this (the second command), I pray and communicate with Him about those I come in contact with. I pray for my enemies, those I dislike as much as those who are easily loved. Next, I try to use the gifts God has given me to further His kingdom as a husband, father, teacher, friend.
I try to wrestle with His word every day and apply to my life something life-changing from scripture. One of those is learning not to trade evil for evil but return evil with good. I read God's Word so that I may be conformed to His image and try to apply a principle from them into my life that I may be conformed to His image every day.

The first thing God looks for in us, is our conformity to Him. Were we loving, were we upright? Were we serious about our walk? Were we known as lovers of God and men?

If OV is to be considered seriously by anyone, this is what's on the table: Is it producing actual Godly characteristics? "You moron!" "You're an idiot!" "You are too stupid to breathe!"

I was put off by a few vitriolic hyper-Calvinists at the outset of my initiation into Calvinism. It went a very long way to slowing my conversion experience and I'm still leary of that extremity. There are arrogant theologians in all camps. We recognize these but this is a 2-part post to exhort us to a higher call. An exhortation to live what we preach and offer a theology that is more than vitriolic asserting and based in humble and loving honesty about who we are and where we belong.
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
putting on Christ

putting on Christ

If OV is to be considered seriously by anyone, this is what's on the table: Is it producing actual Godly characteristics? "You moron!" "You're an idiot!" "You are too stupid to breathe!"


Egotistical, rude belittlings are no fruit of the Spirit. Love edifies, encourages, empowers, envalues :)

I was put off by a few vitriolic hyper-Calvinists at the outset of my initiation into Calvinism. It went a very long way to slowing my conversion experience and I'm still leary of that extremity. There are arrogant theologians in all camps. We recognize these but this is a 2-part post to exhort us to a higher call. An exhortation to live what we preach and offer a theology that is more than vitriolic asserting and based in humble and loving honesty about who we are and where we belong.

Oh yes, have dealt with very bitter hyper-calvies, but there are sour grapes in every bunch. The ultimate aim is the meaningful investment of our religious experience and life-path, if indeed we bear the fruit of the Savior we claim to honor and worship, or that high ideal and spiritual integrity that comes from an actual knowledge and communion with Deity.

The Master wills that we bear fruit, for such is the nature of Life...it is re-productive. Of course we all know what the fruit of the Spirit is. With these, can we uphold the virtues of truth, beauty and goodness? Let us reflect upon these investments. The end of following Jesus is becoming like him. - Christ-likeness



pj
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Lon has heart and head and putting the emphasis where it belongs. :sam:

Being rude and fleshly is not related to Open Theism, but a quirk of individuals who hold to various views. I suppose if one feels they have cornered the market on truth, they may become arrogant and condescending with others.

It seems to me that we are to love believers and unbelievers and demonstrate Christ-like character. This does not mean we compromise truth or rebuke when necessary.

Perhaps we should return to original languages like 'you brood of vipers' instead of moron, idiot (or are those KJV equivalents?)?:help:
 

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
Gold Subscriber
Hall of Fame
I was talking about your attitude to Lon.

Your affirmation of God choosing to not know something knowable is a denial of omniscience as defined by Open Theism and classical theism. You are left with a god who does not know things that Satan, men, books, etc. know.
:baby:
 
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