ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2

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PKevman

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Ask Mr. Religion- Is it insulting or blasphemous to say that God does not know how many hairs are on the Tooth Fairy's head?

Or is it insulting or blasphemous to God to say that God does not know how many people live in a fictional place, such as "The Land of Make Believe" on the Mr. Rogers show?
 

PKevman

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I think that one would be feeding a monstrous error by playing the "show me where in the Bible" game. Rather, the question should be, why do you have such a strange epistemology? Who made up the rules of your game that everything must be stated in The Bible?


Evo

I am a Biblicist, which means that I believe what the Bible says over anything that people say. The Bible is the Word of God. God reveals His mind in His Word. The Spirit of God will teach the child of God the mind of God through the Word of God. If that is a strange epistemology, so be it. :)
 

Nathon Detroit

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Since we are finite creatures, we might also expect that we will always live in a succession of moments. Just as we will never attain to God’s omniscience or omnipresence, so we shall never attain to God’s eternity in the sense of seeing all time equally vividly and not living in a succession of moments or being limited by time. As finite creatures, we will rather live in a succession of moments that will never end.
How could you possibly know that God is different than us in that sense?

Especially in light of the fact you have stated several times that we do have the ability to comprehend God.

I hate to tell you AMR but I think you fatally marginalized yourself.
 

Ktoyou

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"No limitation or imperfection in creation should be projected onto our thoughts of God." from AMR


I want to say that I agree wholeheartedly with this statement, and if time is NOT a created thing, this entire argument vanishes away! Would you agree or disagree with that statement? Why or why not?

Pk, a thoughtful and clear response, while I do believe God is beyond time, my views are not exactly the same as AMR, I think both of you and he are very knowledgeable. I agree that if time is more a permanent fixture where God would be within time, He would then not necessarily perceive the ultimate of cause instantaneously, thus He could not predict all outcomes in the future. My idea of past, present and future is they are dimensions dependent or in relationship with space; time and space may be infinite, yet it would have a substance not necessarily material, but existent. For me, time is a function of consciousness and as such, it is a human necessity. For God, there is no substance, material or immaterial that God functions through.

No, I do not derive any of this from Scripture and cannot prove with Scripture.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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You cannot produce overwhelming or even clear evidence that time is a created thing. There is nowhere that it is even implied in any text in the Bible that I have come across. If so, please provide that text so that we can learn from it together. :)
I have so provided it, yet all you are doing is saying it isn't so. As I have done, give me the same courtesy and make your case. You have used no scriptures with a rationale to support them in your reply to me. All you want to do is keep asking me more questions and denying what I have been writing in my response and the other referenced responses.
I asked you this question not to attempt to draw you into a straw man debate, but rather to get you to think about this position you hold and also to consider how strong the Biblical evidence actually is for it.
Then demonstrate the strong evidence you imply.

Calvinists STRONGLY insist time is created and that God therefore operates outside of time. (What is popularly taught in many seminaries and churches is the "Helicopter View" which basically states that God is above all of time and thus sees all time at once. I was taught this as a young believer and blindly accepted it for years......UNTIL I began to study the Word of God for myself and learn that God does NOT in fact present Himself that way in His Word.
Again, this strong insistence by Calvinists and all of classical theists is based upon years of historical exegesis. Where is yours?
In some ways I agree with you. But men have been getting things in science wrong for thousands of years. I will not rely solely on science to understand something God says or does. I approach things from the Scriptural and Biblical standpoint. What does the Bible have to say? How does God present Himself from His Word?
Then where does this leave us? Are we to just sit on both sides of the table and guffaw at one another? I maintain that any knowledge gained within the sphere of science is completely dependent of God's bestowal of light on the mind. There is no such thing as autonomous reason, i.e., reason that is unaided by divine revelation. Science and theology are in perfect agreement because all truth is God's truth. Science and theology both presuppose God's divine revelation. If a theory is false in science, then it must be false in theology as well (and vice versa). Wherever truth is found, the truth of God is being discovered. I believe along with the Reformed theologians that what I have expounded to you, with appropriate extensive citation, is biblical.
Do YOU believe that God has the freedom to change His mind about something?
Shall we stick to one topic at a time? I have answered this question extensively in this and other threads.
I do not deny that God created everything and that He did it in 6 literal days as the Bible says. I agree completely that the world had a beginning, but again, where does it say that God created TIME? Or even that TIME is a created thing?
Time is a created thing for it is a property of space and matter. To hold otherwise is to hold that space and matter pre-existed God's creation. At best, you must hold that God created time before He created space and matter. Either way, the atemporality of God stands. You and others that hold to what you believe are unwittingly creating stumbling blocks for the less mature Christian and fueling the fires of the non-believer's rhetoric that Christians are unwilling to enter into scientific discourse. As I stated above, I see great synergy with science and theology, for they both must spring from God's revealed truth.
I agree completely. This still does not speak anything towards the creation of time or that God is outside of time. That God is the I AM is showing us that He is self-existent and always has been. He was uncreated and has always been and will always be God. Open Viewers do not deny this.
Then we are in agreement. Self-existence is extant of temporality.
This is where the Settled View begins to break down and grow even more incoherent. Your whole premise in the above statement rests on "MUST BE", and it shows the unsure nature of your position!
You read it wrong. My "must be" means "it cannot be otherwise".
If you base your views on what the Bible says first and then everything else after, you don't need to do these mental guessing games. Having a Biblical worldview means everything written and taught by men must be in submission to the Scriptures.
Huh? Please review my post. I took the time to use the scriptures to respond. Please demonstrate where each of the scriptures I have used fail to support my position.
Well said. Time exists for all eternity, so is it such a large stretch to believe it always did exist?
The context was in heaven. Thus, I presume, and you know this, that God created time when He created the universe and His creatures. As my post stated, we are temporal and will exist in unending time in Heaven. That still does not make us equal to God's existence, for there is but one I AM.
I agree wholeheartedly that God is far greater and mightier and more significant than all of mankind and all of creation combined. I don't agree that He sees all time equally vividly. I definitely do not see this in the Scriptures either.
God bless!
As above, please make your case. I have made mine and stand behind it.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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Especially in light of the fact you have stated several times that we do have the ability to comprehend God.
You are baiting me, Knight, and you know it. You made nearly the same comment before and I clearly told you that you should be careful in how you quote my words back to me. We do not have the ability to understand a transcendent God fully. Try to at least get it right the next time you pop by and toss little hand grenades into the conversation and then run.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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Ask Mr. Religion- Is it insulting or blasphemous to say that God does not know how many hairs are on the Tooth Fairy's head?

Or is it insulting or blasphemous to God to say that God does not know how many people live in a fictional place, such as "The Land of Make Believe" on the Mr. Rogers show?
This approach seems to be the norm within TOL. Non-substantive questions coyly posed in the hopes of springing some unfounded "gotcha!" on another. This is the same sort of behavior that Lamerson noted in the BR with Enyart.

Why not be direct as I have been? I don't ask questions without also providing my own position as a starting point. And no one here will maintain that I give brief responses!

If you have something affirmative to discuss, honestly and sincerely make the case; I hope and pray that I will be up to a response in kind. If you want to discuss something, there must be a position established and supported first.
 

Jerry Shugart

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You cannot produce overwhelming or even clear evidence that time is a created thing. There is nowhere that it is even implied in any text in the Bible that I have come across. If so, please provide that text so that we can learn from it together. :)
Pastor Kevin,

I do believe that the idea that time is a created thing is implied in the Scriptures. "Time" is a law of our very existence, and we are bound by time. On the other hand, the following words ceratinly imply that the Gos is not so bound:

"But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day" (2 Pet.3:8).

This is showing that God is not under the law of time. The only way that He could not be under the law of time is because in the eternal state (the state that existed before the creation of the universe) there is no such thing as time.

It might be added that since there is no past or present with God--only the ever present now--then the Open View is a fact.

In His grace,--Jerry
 

PKevman

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AMR- Honestly if you are constantly worrying about being baited, how strong can your position be? State your position clearly and Biblically and quit worrying about "being baited".

As to your comment of proving the case for Open Theism Biblically, that has been done many, many times over on this board. I will post for you some verses that strongly support the Open View of God. If you remove the predisposition towards the Calvinist view, these verses will open up to you. Don't worry, Calvin's views were not original either. Augustine was a strong Calvinist long before Calvin was a thought!

Genesis 2:19

19 Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name.

AMR- Why did the Lord God bring the animals to Adam?

Jeremiah 18:7-10

7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.

God clearly shows that He can change both His words and His mind if He so chooses? Why? Because God is love. Because God desires men to repent and turn to Him! It's unfortunate that so many do not, wouldn't you agree? But God is not to blame for their refusal to submit their lives to Him! He did everything He could do to save men by sending His Son to die for them!

p.s. I am not sure if you are aware of it or not, but there was a great Battle Royale on this very topic here on TOL. Have you read it?
 

PKevman

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This approach seems to be the norm within TOL. Non-substantive questions coyly posed in the hopes of springing some unfounded "gotcha!" on another. This is the same sort of behavior that Lamerson noted in the BR with Enyart.

Why not be direct as I have been? I don't ask questions without also providing my own position as a starting point. And no one here will maintain that I give brief responses!

If you have something affirmative to discuss, honestly and sincerely make the case; I hope and pray that I will be up to a response in kind. If you want to discuss something, there must be a position established and supported first.

I was asking you some very simple and direct questions. Why refuse to answer them? What "Gotcha" could I have that you are afraid of if your position is strong? What a silly way to discuss something!

I am not sure how my questions were not "direct". Does God know how many people live in the Land of Make Believe or not? I don't see why that is difficult to answer!
 

PKevman

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AMR said:
If you want to discuss something, there must be a position established and supported first.

Here is the position stated clearly: God knows everything knowable that He chooses to know.
 

Philetus

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And no one here will maintain that I give brief responses!

Finally ... an honest statement.:rolleyes:

AMR, you avoid more scripture and simple straight forward statements and question by your whining "make your case' and 'God's to big for us to know' and 'if you would just R-E-A-D MY posts here and here and here more carefully' and 'you just pop up' than a thumb sucking toddler. You are a hoot. You need to read posts other than your own from time to time. The only thing bigger than God in this universe seems to be your estimation of your own knowledge of Him.
 

Philetus

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According to man? Or God? OV seems to hone on the former in reasoning fallaciously blurring the lines in discussion.

Get a clue Lonster. "I wish I could get Open Viewers to think like I do and read the scripture the way we always have, so we could all just get along and the world could live in peace and we could all be calviniest so I could be more confident when I become one too."

According to men who read the same scripture you read and love the Lord their God as much as you do and desire to know Him and serve him with the same passion you have.

Quit being a jerk. I'm sick of this trite approach that you and AMR continue to dump on this thread. Grow up and quit being so condescending.

In looooove,
Phelitus
 

Philetus

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I was asking you some very simple and direct questions. Why refuse to answer them? What "Gotcha" could I have that you are afraid of if your position is strong? What a silly way to discuss something!

I am not sure how my questions were not "direct". Does God know how many people live in the Land of Make Believe or not? I don't see why that is difficult to answer!

I guess it's only difficult to answer if you live there.
 

PKevman

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The ambiguity and opaqueness of this statement robs it of anything you intended to communicate "clearly" with it.


Evo

Oh..... Ok. God knows everything knowable that He chooses to know. I don't think you can get any more clearer than that.

Are you attempting to argue that there are things God knows that He doesn't want to know? Are you attempting to argue that there are things God knows that are unknowable?

If so, maybe you can answer the simple question: Does God know how many people live in the "Land of Make Believe"? Is it insulting or blasphemous or dishonoring to God to say no?
 

Nathon Detroit

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This is the same sort of behavior that Lamerson noted in the BR with Enyart.
And Dr. Lamerson was wrong for all the same reasons you are.

I am not afraid of answering simple questions. Nobody should be. After all.... aren't we all in search of the truth here? :idunno:

I don't *understand why folks like you, Lonster, Nang and all the other settled viewers hate answering simple questions. Our old buddy Hilston was the exact same way, kinda makes ya go.... "hmmm". :think:

* I actually I do understand why you avoid simple questions. Truth stands tall in light of simple questions, yet..... untruths tend to crumble quickly in light of simple questions.
 

PKevman

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And Dr. Lamerson was wrong for all the same reasons you are.

I am not afraid of answering simple questions. Nobody should be. After all.... aren't we all in search of the truth here? :idunno:

I don't *understand why folks like you, Lonster, Nang and all the other settled viewers hate answering simple questions. Our old buddy Hilston was the exact same way, kinda makes ya go.... "hmmm". :think:

* I actually I do understand why you avoid simple questions. Truth stands tall in light of simple questions, yet..... untruths tend to crumble quickly in light of simple questions.

:up:

I never realized that the "Land of Make Believe" could be such a difficult theological issue. :rotfl:
 

PKevman

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I do have to say that I feel sorry at times for our Calvinist brothers and sisters. They are taught this stuff as if it were Biblical fact, set in stone, no question. I was taught these things, and used to defend them. It was really the false doctrine of Omnipresence that first led me to the light bulb moment.
 
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