themuzicman
Well-known member
Again, does God keep the covenant if Abram doesn't go?
Conditional says 'no'. Unconditional says 'yes'.
Muz
Conditional says 'no'. Unconditional says 'yes'.
Muz
ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
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Actually all such prophesies/promises are conditional per Jeremiah 18 but aside from that you're right here except that the point is that God didn't have to say that to Abram. There was nothing magical about Abram except that he had faith in God. Had he not had faith in God then the promise made to Abram in Genesis 12:1-3 might have been made to someone else who did.
If that had been the case then God would not have had a relationship with the people who became the Jews but instead might have had a relationship with the people who become the Germans or the Spaniards or something. The point here is that it did not have to turn out precisely the way it did in order for God to fulfill not only His overall plan but each and every messianic prophesy along the way. Of course, had the Messiah come from a different people He would not have been called the "Messiah" as that is a Jewish word, and the prophets would all have been different as well as the specific prophesies themselves but regardless of the details, God would have found a way to preserve for Himself a remnant. He always has and always will. God's plans do not hinge on any one person's faith or lack thereof. He is the almighty God and is perfectly able to accomplish that which He wants to accomplish and cannot be overcome because someone or some nation of someone's decides not to do what He wants for them to do.
How many times did God move to destroy Israel itself? After Israel had worshiped the golden calf, He told Moses that He would destroy the whole nation and start completely over again and build a nation from Moses' seed. The only reason He didn't do it is because Moses talked Him out of it!
Resting in Him,
Clete
RobE
New member
This is the one of the points. Knowing is knowing and not something else. 'Will' is not 'might', 'maybe' is in the middle, etc., etc., etc.
This is expressly the point of one of the objections I posted against the Stanford argument. The future given isn't necessary until it occurs at which time doing otherwise would become necessarily impossible. To say that it's necessary beforehand would be logically invalid. #5 - #7. This occurs as the Stanford proof transfers necessity to a future event, which is incorrect.
Though, eventually, they will do something and not it's opposite.
This is impossible from the open position. God doesn't know His own intentions. For example, He intends to destroy Nineveh then doesn't. Same for Tyre, Hezekiah, the Jews, Egypt, etc., etc., etc.....
Outcomes are 'best guesses' at best for this thinking. Absolute knowledge would be an ill-defined outcome to these events if open theism is correct. If you wish to maintain that God has absolute knowledge of His own intentions' then you would also have to maintain that God's intented outcomes occurred. Otherwise that knowledge was lacking and probably would be better defined as 'belief' or 'speculation'.
A great example of God's intentions coming about is in Hezekiah's prayer of thanksgiving. God's intentions were far from God's statement of "you will not recover" as open theism translates it. Would you agree Hezekiah had a better understanding of the situation than Boyd, Sanders, or Pinnock combined?
Philetus
New member
If God had called him instead of Abe it wouldn't have mattered. He would have become a Jew, as did Abe. :chuckle:
Philetus
New member
God knows His own intentions as possibilities, you idiot, not as actual until HE CARIES THEM OUT and sometimes God changes His mind and does otherwise.
Doing otherwise ain't impossible until after it is done. :chew:
When God makes HIS OWN INTENTIONS known there is something lacking ... what you call exhaustive foreknowledge. It ain't there! You will never reconcile the two.
Rob, I'm done with you on this point!
Hence the word INTENTIONS.
:doh::duh:
If RobE isn't an embarrassment to all you Settled View believers out there, he aught to be!
He's an embarrassment to me as a Christian! :shocked:
griffinsavard
New member
Open theism is not Biblical
Open theism is not Biblical
God is in control of much more than most think...
Abraham had faith because God gave it to him...
Jhn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Act 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard [us]: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.
Act 16:15 And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought [us], saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide [there]. And she constrained us.
1Cr 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
Now watch this...
Ex 21 12 “Whoever strikes a person so that he dies must be put to death.
13 But if he didn’t intend any harm, and yet God caused it to happen by his hand, I will appoint a place for you where he may flee."
Even our decisions are governed by God. If someone dies accidentally, it is because "God caused it to happen."
Mat 10:29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
Mat 10:30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. :cloud9:
Open theism is not Biblical
God is in control of much more than most think...
Abraham had faith because God gave it to him...
Jhn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Act 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard [us]: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.
Act 16:15 And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought [us], saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide [there]. And she constrained us.
1Cr 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
Now watch this...
Ex 21 12 “Whoever strikes a person so that he dies must be put to death.
13 But if he didn’t intend any harm, and yet God caused it to happen by his hand, I will appoint a place for you where he may flee."
Even our decisions are governed by God. If someone dies accidentally, it is because "God caused it to happen."
Mat 10:29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
Mat 10:30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. :cloud9:
Ask Mr. Religion
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Let's use your own gibberish for a response:
"This is a lame comment and shows your lack of understanding of
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SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Good ole Abe was a Shemite and became a Hebrew, but he NEVER was a
Jew. Why did Jesus come out of the line of Shem, rather than Japeth or Ham?
RobE
New member
This assumes God doesn't carry out some of His plans because He is unable. Or, it might suggest that God doesn't know His own intentions if He were to change His mind.
Genesis 12:1 The LORD had said to Abram, "Leave your country, your people and your father's household and go to the land I will show you.
2 "I will make you into a great nation
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you."
Genesis 22:15 The angel of the LORD called to Abraham from heaven a second time 16 and said, "I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies, 18 and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me."
2 "I will make you into a great nation
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you."
Genesis 22:15 The angel of the LORD called to Abraham from heaven a second time 16 and said, "I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies, 18 and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me."
We see that God intended to bless Abraham, and carried out His intentions through action. Are all of God decrees carried out in this manner?
Which is true. Now if you are able to convince the Stanford folks that future acts are unnecessay we might make some progress here.
Sure I will. You have just made the connection of disproving the argument against compatibalism for yourself: "ain't impossible until after it is done."
If your statement is true then the Stanford proof is false since it states it is impossible before it occurs.
Clete said:
Philetus said:
If so, then Clete's idea that God discovered something about Abraham is false. God forged Abraham into a tool to carry out His own known intentions. Was it shocking to God that the outcome occurred as a result of His own actions?
The Bible confirms the idea that God made a covenant with Abraham and was faithful to it despite the unfaithfulness of Abraham's children. The covenant for blessing was made during the story of Isaac. Abraham's willingness to obey God with Isaac was why it was made......
16 "I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore".
....just as this scripture confirms. It simply wasn't certain until the event occurred. God certainly knew of it, but it wasn't necessary until the event became real.
RobE
New member
Yet Christians are known by their actions......
John 13:34 "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.
John 13:35 By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."
Romans 12:10Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves.
John 13:35 By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."
Romans 12:10Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves.
....and loving disposition.
1 Corinthians 13:4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8Love never fails.
Love,
Rob
RobE
New member
It's obvious, especially with the Jews, that God keeps His covenants despite the actions of others. God's covenants are fulfilled unconditionally.
Ezekiel 16:59 " 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will deal with you as you deserve, because you have despised my oath by breaking the covenant. 60 Yet I will remember the covenant I made with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish an everlasting covenant with you.
Galatians 3:5 Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?
6Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."[a] 7Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. 8The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you."
Genesis 12:1 The LORD had said to Abram, "Leave your country, your people and your father's household and go to the land I will show you.
2 "I will make you into a great nation
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you."
Genesis 22:15 The angel of the LORD called to Abraham from heaven a second time 16 and said, "I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies, 18 and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me."
2 "I will make you into a great nation
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you."
Genesis 22:15 The angel of the LORD called to Abraham from heaven a second time 16 and said, "I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies, 18 and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me."
This is a great example of why proof-texting sucks!
None of the passages quoted teach the blasphemous nonsense that this post suggests - none of them!
And the Exodus passage is an intentional misquote and/or the worst translation ever in the history of Biblical translation! Doesn't anyone own a Strong's Concordance or a King James Bible any more?
Calvinists such as this are astounding in their ignorance of the Bible! What in the world makes them even want to post on a website intended to provide a place to debate theology? I remember when I first knew of this place, I refused to post here for months because I thought it would presumptuous on my part to think I was even remotely qualified to debate such important issues. But these Calvinists are just brazen! They don't know the first thing about the Bible and couldn't care less! Who in the world would you have to think yourself to be in order to misquote the Bible to such a degree as to openly declare that God causes murder! MY FOUR YEAR OLD DAUGHTER WOULD KNOW THAT SUCH A THING COULD NOT BE TRUE!!!! I mean how stupid do you really have to be to not only not know that such a passage would have to be translated or quoted wrong but to actually believe the obvious false teaching?
griffinsavard is a blasphemer of the highest order. How is rep isn't in the red, I'll never know, fellowship week not withstanding.
Resting in Him,
Clete
patman
Active member
Hi griffinsavard
I haven't seen you on the Open Theism thread before, so welcome.
I do not agree on the interpretation of the verses you presented. When we look at other scripture we see God calls us all, but few answer. I think of the "ask, seek, knock" verse. And the "for God so loved the world" verse.
They are pretty popular, I shouldn't need to quote them. But they show the invitation to salvation is for anyone who will call upon God.
Can you honestly picture God turning a repentant person away because he wasn't chosen from creation?
patman
Active member
A lot of Settled Viewers explain unfulfilled prophetic verses, such as Nineveh's 40 day destruction, with conditions. A helper answer is sometimes given that says "He didn't have to tell us the whole plan."
Yet, those same people can't seem to understand how Open Theist can trust God. The question sounds like "If God doesn't know the future, how can you be sure he will return and save us?" I am paraphrasing a lot of people here, yes, but that is the general concern.
But when you consider the Settled View's explanations, you come to a scary place.
If God can change the outcome to prophecy based on conditions, and he doesn't have to tell us the full prophecy, how can they be sure he revealed everything there is to know about salvation?
What if God prophesied our salvation, but didn't tell us all of the conditions, and we unwittingly didn't meet those conditions? How can you be so sure you are saved?
All this time the Settled Viewers try and try to put us Open Theist in this uncertain place when they the ones who are really there.
They might try to answer "God wouldn't hide how to be saved" but how do they know when God did hide the conditions from Nineveh, and countless other examples?
They do not trust God. They trust a settled future.
Thanks for reading, I thought I would try to better explain my last post...
Yet, those same people can't seem to understand how Open Theist can trust God. The question sounds like "If God doesn't know the future, how can you be sure he will return and save us?" I am paraphrasing a lot of people here, yes, but that is the general concern.
But when you consider the Settled View's explanations, you come to a scary place.
If God can change the outcome to prophecy based on conditions, and he doesn't have to tell us the full prophecy, how can they be sure he revealed everything there is to know about salvation?
What if God prophesied our salvation, but didn't tell us all of the conditions, and we unwittingly didn't meet those conditions? How can you be so sure you are saved?
All this time the Settled Viewers try and try to put us Open Theist in this uncertain place when they the ones who are really there.
They might try to answer "God wouldn't hide how to be saved" but how do they know when God did hide the conditions from Nineveh, and countless other examples?
They do not trust God. They trust a settled future.
Thanks for reading, I thought I would try to better explain my last post...
atrol:
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Is this directed at any one person, or just for the general edification of all
TOLers?
It was in support of Patman's post above. Sorry for the generic babble (bad habit, but I don't like quoting big posts with only a one line response).
Are you getting paranoid, my friend and brother?
I love and appreciate you, so sorry again for past feather-ruffling in my frustration or pride.
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