ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2

Status
Not open for further replies.

lee_merrill

New member
God could make you fly through the air and land on your head (omnipotence).
Do please inform Yorzhik of this!

If you are arguing for causal determinism, be honest and do not talk about free will or compatibilism.
I'm talking about people saying here that God cannot have my palms up--this he can indeed do.

God does not know which way your palms will go before you are born.
Yet he knows someone named Cyrus will decree that Jerusalem be rebuilt, 70 years or more before this occurs.

He knows that Jeremiah will be a prophet before he is born--he knows, yes knows, only a remnant will be saved, until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. And then:

Romans 11:26-27 ... all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

Note that this does not mean God counts up all the people in Israel who have repented, removes the rest, and then declares all Israel saved--he is taking away sins here, not taking away sinners.

But how can this be known? that so many, most if not all will repent.

Blessings,
Lee
 

lee_merrill

New member
Does this even prove that the Issiah passage is not referring to a virgin? No, it doesn't prove that either.
I would have thought that when the Lord translated a passage into Greek, he got it right...

Matthew 1:23 "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel"--which means, "God with us."

The Septuagint translates Isaiah 7:14 with the same Greek word, "parthenos," virgin.

Blessings,
Lee
 

patman

Active member
This is why I really question whether Calvinist believe in Omnipotence. It seems that every time something comes up that "might not go right" if God doesn't know how it's going to come out, the completely fail to consider that God's omnipotence and ability to bring about His purpose by acting in the moment, rather than fixing the game beforehand.

Do they seriously think that God is that powerless?

Muz

I guess it is a debate tactic??

But I do not see how it proves anything. If God could shed any power he would still be God... just look at Jesus.

Several on TOL said they would stop following God if he didn't know the entire future. Does that mean they will stop following Jesus? He said didn't know the last hour for the end...(paraphrasing) That shows God can shed that exaustive future knowledge ability (assuming he has it off course)

Was he not still powerful and able to fulfill the word?
 

lee_merrill

New member
If God could shed any power he would still be God... just look at Jesus.
No, "God" is not a title we give to someone with less than divine attributes in one or more aspects, even if they had complete divine attributes before.

Was he not still powerful and able to fulfill the word?
Not if he puts off omnipotence, or omniscience, there will be words he is not able to fulfill. This brings a certain theology to mind.

Blessings,
Lee
 

RobE

New member
God, it seems to me, was very clearly controlling the extent of His injuries as well as the exact manner and timing of His death. None of which requires exhaustive knowledge of the future nor the suspension of anyone's free will. Indeed, all it took was a knowledge of prophesy and the ability to manipulate the situation to whatever end He desired, which, of course, God has the ability to do.

What's being avoided here is that all of these actions or 'methods' were carried out by free agents. 'God has the ability to do' implies that God had some idea as to the future actions of these agents. The 'clearly controlling' of free agents wills makes them unfree.

This idea also makes God the prime mover in the death of Christ.

My view would state God simply knew what the free agents would do beforehand and related that knowledge to the prophets. The view above, alas, would be God using His own power to bring the events about. Is it your point here that God 'orchestrated' the death of Our, Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ?
 

RobE

New member
This is why I really question whether Calvinist believe in Omnipotence. It seems that every time something comes up that "might not go right" if God doesn't know how it's going to come out, the completely fail to consider that God's omnipotence and ability to bring about His purpose by acting in the moment, rather than fixing the game beforehand.

Do they seriously think that God is that powerless?

Muz

And again, do you continue your walk towards SupraLapsarianism, claiming that God orchestrated the death of Our Lord?

'Acting in the moment' doesn't remove scripture which was written before the moment arrived. God does act 'in the moment' because that is when the events occur. Deciding to act might occur much earlier(i.e. before the dawn of time).

Those decisions must be made proximally or distally, through foreknowledge.
 

Nick M

Born that men no longer die
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
What's being avoided here is that all of these actions or 'methods' were carried out by free agents. 'God has the ability to do' implies that God had some idea as to the future actions of these agents. The 'clearly controlling' of free agents wills makes them unfree.

This idea also makes God the prime mover in the death of Christ.

My view would state God simply knew what the free agents would do beforehand and related that knowledge to the prophets. The view above, alas, would be God using His own power to bring the events about. Is it your point here that God 'orchestrated' the death of Our, Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ?

In terms that Jesus had to live perfect with out sin, under the law, yes. He did what we can't do, and nailed our sin to the cross. He came to do it for us.

When a kidnapper takes a child against their will, he did not take her will away. Overpowering it does not take it away.
 

RobE

New member
Within the concept of remnant, it could be 1000 or 1 million or more. It is open-ended, not fixed to the last person. Your verse may also have had historical proximal fulfillment (or is it repeated in the NT?).

This, however, doesn't answer the problem presented by Judas Iscariot or Peter's denial. The events which were proximally foretold, still required foreknowledge of free acts.

The remnant question remains unanswered since there may have been 'none', 'all', or 'some' which were saved. How did God know the outcomes of thousands of individuals.
 

RobE

New member
In terms that Jesus had to live perfect with out sin, under the law, yes. He did what we can't do, and nailed our sin to the cross. He came to do it for us.

When a kidnapper takes a child against their will, he did not take her will away. Overpowering it does not take it away.

If we look at it this way then Calvinism, and God choosing through election, is completely reasonable. Do you agree that God might overpower individuals against their will to sin? If so, is God the initiator of the sinful acts? Do you believe in positive reprobation?
 

Nick M

Born that men no longer die
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
This, however, doesn't answer the problem presented by Judas Iscariot or Peter's denial. The events which were proximally foretold, still required foreknowledge of free acts.

You don't know the difference between exhaustive foreknowledge and foreknowlege?

Who touched me?

Answer that one.
 

Philetus

New member
I would not attempt to argue that Issiah 7:14 is translated incorrectly but the glib "I believe my New Testament: Virgin!" or other similar pat response just doesn't cut it.

The fact is that the Hebrew word for virgin is not used in Issiah 7:14.

The Hebrew word for virgin is bĕthuwlah (Strong's #1330). Its first usage is Genesis 24:16.

Issiah 7:14 does not use bĕthuwlah, it uses `almah (Strong's #5959).

Now, you can see, if you follow the links to the definitions, those two words are not the same! Does that prove that Mary wasn't a virgin? Of course not! Does this even prove that the Issiah passage is not referring to a virgin? No, it doesn't prove that either. But the point is that the issue a just a little bit more complex than "I believe my Bible." God's word is indeed inspired but the English translation of it was not and it does no one any good at all to flippantly blow off valid objections and observations of its contents just because we think the answer should be perfectly obvious. If the objection is frivolous then expose it as such but if it is not then don't pretend like it is, but rather deal with it head on.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Point well made. "Head On; apply directly to the forehead ... I love your product, its your commercials I can't stand."

The point is the same even though my response was couched in sarcastic. "I believe my Bible" like we don't. Give me a break! Like we both said, the conclusive evidence for the virgin birth isn't in the OT. That doesn't make the OT untrue. I believe it as well! I just don't need to go looking for what isn't there to bolster the New Testament witness. It makes me wonder if the claim doesn't reveal lest than full confidence in the testimonies of the Christian evangelists. It's the same kind of arguments (garbage in reverse) we have to deal with in classical theology's definitions of the omnis: exaggerating what is there and negating the rest.

Sarcasm translated: "I'm not impressed with 'I believe my bible!" I'm impressed with 'rightly handling the word of God."

Philetus
 

Philetus

New member
Is God able to provide an English Bible that says exactly what he wants it to say?

Or, did he intend that only those fluent in Hebrew and Greek would have any chance of understanding his revelation to mankind?

If we don't have the Word of God in our hands, aren't we all wasting our time discussing it?

Could He? Yes! Has He? Which one? Yours while everyone else is wasting their time because they don't agree with your hermeneutic? The bone of contention (in this case) is not your conclusion, its your method. And that will prove to be important in how we read other texts that refer to God 'repenting' and the like; how God chooses to use His power; whether or not Jesus was really tempted and really suffered. Even how God knows there will be a remnant; all of which have been discussed to the point of absurdity in this thread.

We not only have the Word of God in our hands, we have it in our hearts.

Jesus didn't say "I’ll ask the Father and He will send you a book (or version) to lead you into all truth." That doesn’t minimize nor exaggerate the importance or the accuracy of the written word. But without the present inspiration of the Spirit NO translation is fully adequate. That is why I think we have so many ‘versions’ (some clearly better than others) so we don’t come to be people who worship a book. We worship the living, dynamic, acting, thinking, loving God over all who became flesh and LIVED the Gospel. And we do it through the Spirit. The book helps.

It is by his broken flesh, his stripes and not his unbroken bones, that we are healed. Don’t miss that part of Isaiah’s insight while picking a bone with your brothers.

Philetus
 

Philetus

New member
:duh:
Asking the question "Who touched me?" is simply not knowing.

Jesus asked an honest question that wasn't rhetorical ... :jawdrop:
He must have been fully human.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Is God able to provide an English Bible that says exactly what he wants it to say?
Capable isn't the issue. He is capable of a lot of things that He has not done.

I might ask you whether God is able to provide a Gaelic Bible (or any language you want to name) that says exactly what He wants it to say.

Or, did he intend that only those fluent in Hebrew and Greek would have any chance of understanding his revelation to mankind?
Hasty generalization fallacy and non-sequitor.

It is not necessary to be fluent in any language, including English, Hebrew or Greek in order to understand His revelation to mankind.

If we don't have the Word of God in our hands, aren't we all wasting our time discussing it?
The Bible is God's word and so no, we are not wasting our time. That doesn't mean that any English translation was an inspired (i.e. perfect) translation. In fact, we know for a fact that the English translations we have are not perfect translations for several reasons, not the least of which is the fact that there is no such thing as a perfect translation from one language to any other language.

The thing is that we don't have a perfect translation simply because we do not need a perfect translation. If we needed one, we'd have one but we don't need one and so there is no need for us to do all sorts of theological and rational back flips trying to make what we do have into more than it is.

The Bible is a very thick book that teaches us all sorts of things in all sorts of various ways. This complex redundancy serves as its own error correcting mechanism. This virgin issue is a perfect example of this mechanism in action. We can know that the Issiah passage is talking about a virgin, and that the translation is therefore accurate, because the Bible makes the issue painfully clear is lots and lots of other places. But even if the Issiah passage hadn't been translated correctly, we would still know how it should have been translated because of the fact that the Bible makes it so unavoidably obvious in so many other ways.

Now, what I've just very, very briefly and entirely incompletely explained above is a much firmer foundation for the Christian apologist to base his theology upon than some obviously clichéd belief in an inspired English translation of the Bible, which spawns the type of one liners that commonly get thrown around on this website. We should, as Christians, not only for own own sake but for the sake of unbelievers as well, strive to maintain a theology that makes real sense, and the only way that is possible is for us to be skeptical about our theology in a manner that is as intellectually honest as possible. That means we question every cliché and we don't believe things just because it sounds good or because it makes us feel better about the rest of our theology or because our parents said it, or because our pastor said it, or because 10,000 pastors have said in the past or anything else like that. We must guard our hearts and minds and be watchful for any falsehood, testing every single doctrinal truth claim in the fire of Scripture and sound reason, rejecting all things which cannot be so established.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
What's being avoided here is that all of these actions or 'methods' were carried out by free agents. 'God has the ability to do' implies that God had some idea as to the future actions of these agents. The 'clearly controlling' of free agents wills makes them unfree.

This idea also makes God the prime mover in the death of Christ.

My view would state God simply knew what the free agents would do beforehand and related that knowledge to the prophets. The view above, alas, would be God using His own power to bring the events about. Is it your point here that God 'orchestrated' the death of Our, Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ?

You are so mind-blowingly stupid that the fact that you are even able to type your posts (never mind read everyone else's) defies explanation. I kid you not when I say my four year old daughter is a more skillful thinker than you are! I mean we're talking preschool level thinking skills here that are simply over your head! Unbelievable!

It has been and will continue to be my prayer that you will either choose to find a different hobby or will, by some means, be made unable to continue posting here. You're wasting everyone's time, including your own.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
I would have thought that when the Lord translated a passage into Greek, he got it right...

Matthew 1:23 "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel"--which means, "God with us."

The Septuagint translates Isaiah 7:14 with the same Greek word, "parthenos," virgin.

Blessings,
Lee
You see! Now that's a Biblical argument I can get behind! This one-liner "I believe my Bible." stuff is just beneath us all.

That's all I'm getting at with having brought it up. All I want is for us to make the argument and stop with the simple minded clichés.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Is God able to provide an English Bible that says exactly what he wants it to say?

Or, did he intend that only those fluent in Hebrew and Greek would have any chance of understanding his revelation to mankind?

If we don't have the Word of God in our hands, aren't we all wasting our time discussing it?

Are you saying the KJV is inspired like the original autographs? English Bibles have what we need to know, but we need some sweat and textual criticism to ascertain the best MSS, translation, and interpretations. If a book was written in German, it is possible that there could be issues with various English versions. Only the original Hebrew and Greek autographs are inspired. Any translation based on extant MSS will be imperfect, but still reliable.
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Sarcasm translated: "I'm not impressed with 'I believe my bible!" I'm impressed with 'rightly handling the word of God."

Philetus

No offense, but this is the reason I rarely read your posts.

If you don't have a Bible that you can rest on, I feel sorry for you indeed.
I do believe every single word of my Bible, and by the way, it's "rightly dividing
the word of truth."

What is the word of truth that Paul mentions several times?
It's a specific truth.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top