nicholsmom
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I am going to deal with both of your question for me on the other thread (Revelation)
ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2
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I am going to deal with both of your question for me on the other thread (Revelation)
lee_merrill
New member
But I meant the Hebrew word, however my main point is that we see a place where "perhaps" is used and yet God knows the result.
And I await your reply to the following:
Acts 11:14 He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.
This verse shows that God knows decisions concerning salvation, which OVT holds are free, and unknowable until they occur.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Lee,
Are you still wondering how God knew that a remnant of Israel would be saved?
Are you still wondering how God knew that a remnant of Israel would be saved?
Lon
Well-known member
Love is an emotion, emotions are things.
Love is an idea, ideas are things.
Love is commitment, commitment is a thing.
Love is a promise, a promise is a thing.
Just because you cannot wrap your grubby fingers around something does not make it nothing.
Time is a concept, therefore a thing. Let's make it very plain: The past does not exist according to OV, therefore, there is no such thing as an eternal past: The future has not happened, is unknowable, and doesn't exist any more than the easter bunny according to OV. False again, the future is as sure as the past by the word of God, which leaves you living for the moment.
My past 'exists' and my future is assured.
lee_merrill
New member
Why yes, I am, actually!Lee,
Are you still wondering how God knew that a remnant of Israel would be saved?
atrol:Metaphysics deals with stuff, substance, things. Few scientists consider love a thing. You are using a common usage, not a technical one. Love is different than a rock.
The past no longer exists. It once existed. It now exists as a memory, on tape, in records, etc. Are you saying that Jesus is still on the cross? 2009 does not exist yet in reality. It is potential, not fixed or actual yet. This is self-evident unless you get your ideas from science fiction. Many things about the future are sure. He will come again and set up a kingdom. That does not mean that what I type next was a reality or sure from trillions of years ago. Here goes: try repeating this in a moment or predicting it when I was a babysdkgjerq jug=045 y=045jh[obirtbn;kb k;en g[o5yjh [jh[l5jbop'4jop464jh4j4jhkerhjhthj[rhij[ojit[
You might want to understand the view rather than simply misrepresent it with a straw man.:idea:
Implying OTs are not? We all live learning from the past, experiencing the present, and anticipating the future. Was Jesus a post-modern existentialist by your definition?
Everyone's past exists as a memory. I am not still coming out of the birth canal. Are you? My future is also assured because of His promises, not because it has already happened. I am not in heaven yet; are you?
Did I miss the Second Coming? How did my kids finish school when I was not born or married yet?!
RobE
New member
Godrulz,
Do you believe that God knew you and desired you before creation; or, are you simply an accident of nature?
Lon
Well-known member
You just contradicted yourself "The past doesn't exist, exists.
Let me try again, the way you say the future doesn't exist is the same breath OV uses to say the past doesn't exist which is nonesense.
Abraham 'was' born. Look at our temporal language: we say 'will' for future and use verbs for all of them. I typed a message to you that you responded to in the past. It is still there 'present.' You are breathing Abraham and Isaac right 'now.'
The past is 'concrete.' You live in a house a carpenter built for you (in the past).
You cannot escape the past, therefore it follows you into the present concretely.
Abraham and Isaac are still alive.
God declares (decretive will). Because He declares future, it happens and is as concrete as anything else you consider. It is real, tangible, and just as it already happened exactly as it is foretold because God is real, tangible, and effective. "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my Word will never pass away."
His Word is past, present, and future: eternal.
My future exists as surely as I exist because God wills it. It isn't some vague never-neverland concept, it is assured by God Himself. It is real, tangible, and the past extending into the present and future.
"I" don't know my future details but it is though it has already happened.
I declare all my future is within God's decretive will therefore is fully known.
I'm not concerned with LWF, my desire is to have a will in bondage forever. A wonderful, 'beyond my imaginings' bondage to the Savior of my soul.
If my parents did not have sex, I would not exist. God does not know a nothing. Life begins at conception unless you are a Mormon or Origen who believe that we preexist in heaven before coming to earth. If I preexisted, God would know me. Since I did not, He did not know a nothing as if there was a something to know. He only knows possible objects of knowledge, not imaginary ones like Cinderella.
Ps. 139 shows that God knew me intimately in the womb, not from trillions of years ago. Procreation involves free choices. In the last 50 years, he knew of the possibility of my parents mating and producing me, not the certainty of it.
I am not an accident of nature, but a procreative process God has entrusted to us. He gives me life, but not by virgin conception apart from the creative wills of my parents.
There is no advantage for God to know me before I exist (logically impossible). His providential care and love once I do exist is the message of the Bible. Your message is stuff found in science fiction movies (explains the confusion trying to figure them out).
Mystery
New member
I'm sure Hitler's parents regret it too.
Further proof that a change of dates on the calendar does not change character (not that you think you would need to make resolutions about anything).
Like most parents, mine are proud of me. I could have turned out worse considering my father was (no longer) an alcoholic who left when I was 12.
This is why Christ's love and power in my life still marvels me almost 30 years later.
Mystery
New member
So they are both still alive? Is your mother's first name Rosemary?
lee_merrill
New member
Can we tone it down here please, and discuss the issues? Thanks--and grace in Godrulz's manner is commendable.
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lee_merrill
New member
I encountered this verse and realized it would be pertinent in regard to God saying "perhaps":
Genesis 3:9 But the Lord God called to the man and said to him, "Where are you?"
But God certainly knew where Adam was, so he does at times speak from our perspective, and not from his:
Genesis 3:11 "Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?"
Again, we must say here God is not actually asking for information, and is instead speaking from our perspective, as here, when "perhaps" is used:
Jer. 51:8-9 Babylon will suddenly fall and be broken. Wail over her! Get balm for her pain; perhaps she can be healed. "We would have healed Babylon, but she cannot be healed; let us leave her and each go to his own land, for her judgment reaches to the skies, it rises as high as the clouds."
Blessings,
Lee
Genesis 3:9 But the Lord God called to the man and said to him, "Where are you?"
But God certainly knew where Adam was, so he does at times speak from our perspective, and not from his:
Genesis 3:11 "Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?"
Again, we must say here God is not actually asking for information, and is instead speaking from our perspective, as here, when "perhaps" is used:
Jer. 51:8-9 Babylon will suddenly fall and be broken. Wail over her! Get balm for her pain; perhaps she can be healed. "We would have healed Babylon, but she cannot be healed; let us leave her and each go to his own land, for her judgment reaches to the skies, it rises as high as the clouds."
Blessings,
Lee
patman
Active member
God knows times where people will be saved, where they will fall, where they will repent, where they will backslide and all sorts of things.
So what? Do you think your one verse should be applied to every situation? Does it make that claim? Or does it just apply to that one situation?
He also does not know times where people will be saved, whether they will fall, whether they will repent, whether they will backslide.
In other words God knows some of the future but not all of it.
If God is outside of time, why does he wish for things he has/cant have?
Revelation 3:15
I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other!
If God knew all future sins, why didn't he foresee these human sacrifices?
Jeremiah 32:35
They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molech, though I never commanded, nor did it enter my mind, that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin.
God Plans will happen here:
Isaiah 14:24
The LORD Almighty has sworn, "Surely, as I have planned, so it will be, and as I have purposed, so it will stand.
But his plans will not happen here:
Jeremiah 18:8
and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned.
Jeremiah 26:3
Perhaps they will listen and each will turn from his evil way. Then I will relent and not bring on them the disaster I was planning because of the evil they have done.
Lets look at this perhaps verse:
1 Corinthians 16:6
Perhaps I will stay with you awhile, or even spend the winter, so that you can help me on my journey, wherever I go.
You understand the meaning of the word perhaps here do you not? Maybe he will, maybe he won't.
Why isn't it clear for you in this verse:
Jeremiah 36:3
Perhaps when the people of Judah hear about every disaster I plan to inflict on them, each of them will turn from his wicked way; then I will forgive their wickedness and their sin.
Maybe they will hear maybe they won't.
It shouldn't be that hard. In order for you to keep your theology, you must make it hard, you must twist its words.
patman
Active member
Lee, when God asked those questions, he knew the answers. "Did you eat of the tree?" means "You ate of the tree didn't you?"
But when God says "perhaps this good thing will happen" you would expect it to say "this good thing will happen" as you use the same logic. But as it turned out, "this good thing" did not happen in many cases. It almost happened but didn't happen in others.
You are comparing two unalike things btw.
RobE
New member
Perhaps I should have written the question in another way:
Godrulz,
Do you believe that God knew of you and desired you before creation; or, are you simply an accident of nature?
Rob.
p.s. And it isn't logically impossible because God knows some of the future. Specifically that which He intends to bring about. One idea I have is that God was there with your parents when/after they had sex and cooperated in the procreative process. Omnipresence afterall.
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