ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2

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godrulz

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Mystery said:
That is correct. The future is open.

(By grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone)
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The future is partially open and partially settled (2 motifs).

It sounds like your idea of freedom is modified compatibilism. Genuine libertarian freedom is incompatibilistic. It does not mean our freedom is unlimited or able to do illogical things.

Amen to the 'alone' phrases, which I do NOT deny (heart of gospel vs your discussions with Clete about righteousness or the ongoing OSAS debates in church history).
 
Philetus

Philetus

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Mystery: I believe that when we come into this world we are dead to God, and in need of life. The only way for anyone in the future of their life to be saved is by the power of the gospel to everyone who believes it. That is the ONLY choice that a person has regarding salvation. There is no other way to be saved, and so man is not free to be saved any other way.
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And a six week old infant that falls out of his highchair and dies?

God righteously judges that infant as ... saved or unsaved?

(I'm just asking if there are any footnotes to your gospel?)
 
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godrulz

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Mystery said:
godrulz rejects the essentials of the faith, as do you. He does not believe in Christ's Once for All sacrifice Hebrews 10 . He denies the identity of those who are saved. He believes that righteousness is volitional and not a gift. (There are more, but that's all I care to speak of now with you.)

I affirm the essentials. I believe the gospel message of Christ in you. I believe in the righteousness of God. I believe that Christ's sacrifice cleanses those who are in Him from all sin, for all time.

I have had this discussion way to many times. And I don't have enough respect for you to honor you with anymore answers.
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I think you will find Muz to be very credible and coherent in his thinking.

We do not reject the Bible as the Word of God, Deity and resurrection of Christ, salvation by grace through faith alone apart from works, virgin conception, heaven/hell, Trinity, etc. Perhaps you are adding your own ideas to what is essential and not (debatable)?

We fully affirm His once for all sacrifice in Hebrews 10. Jesus does not need to die again every time someone sins or everytime someone gets saved. Hebrews contrasts perpetual animal sacrifices with the once for all space-time historical death of Christ as the Lamb of God. Don't confuse us with Catholics who repeat the 'sacrifice of the Mass' on an ongoing basis.

Believers are in Christ.
We are new creatures in Christ. Our identification is with His death, burial, resurrection to abundant and eternal life (newness of life in Him vs death). Just because I take seriously the stern warnings about the possibility of apostasy/falling away (which Mid-Acts dispensationalizes away), does not mean I deny the truths about a believers identity in Christ.

I believe the gospel of Christ in you, the hope of glory. I affirm the essentials of the faith. I believe His sacrifice is efficacious to cleanse us, past, present, future (though differ as to the timing of the application of the provision...I did not sin before I was born, so it was not applied 2000 years ago and is not applied to Hitler ever).

I just want to say...I love you, Mystery (tears in eyes). :cheers:
 
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godrulz

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Philetus said:
And a six week old infant that falls out of his highchair and dies?

God righteously judges that infant as ... saved or unsaved?

(I'm just asking if there are any footnotes to your gospel?)
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Here comes mental gymnastics and inconsistencies...

Infants are saved based on lack of mental and moral capacity and non-rejection of Christ/gospel. Since I do not believe in Augustinian 'original sin', I see no reason to baptize babies in the Catholic church before they die lest they go to limbo (now passe) or hell.
 
Mystery

Mystery

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Philetus said:
You know that doesn't answer the question.
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Then you'll have to ask God when you see Him. Because it answers it for me.

What's sad is that an entire false belief system is built around one question, because those who don't trust in God's justice can't comprehend what happens to dead babies. And yet another false belief system does the same thing by making God pre-choose who is saved and who isn't in order to explain dead babies.

I don't think God has to tell us everything, and I believe He meant to keep some things from us so that our belief system would be... "In all things, I will trust in Him".
 
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godrulz

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Mystery said:
Then you'll have to ask God when you see Him. Because it answers it for me.
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Hey, if Philetus gets to be with God, then so do I (we are attached at the hip and share a common, general faith).

Then again, maybe you mean when we see Him at judgment and He says: depart from me, I never knew you?
 
Philetus

Philetus

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Mystery said:
Then you'll have to ask God when you see Him. Because it answers it for me.

What's sad is that an entire false belief system is built around one question, because those who don't trust in God's justice can't comprehend what happens to dead babies. And yet another false belief system does the same thing by making God pre-choose who is saved and who isn't in order to explain dead babies.

I don't think God has to tell us everything, and I believe He meant to keep some things from us so that our belief system would be... "In all things, I will trust in Him".
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That's a much better answer than I expected. It's a question your 'air tight gospel' can't answer. I accept that. I trust God to do the right thing as well, He is entirely free and able to do so even if our 'belief system' (the gospel?) doesn't answer all the questions to our critics satisfaction.
 
themuzicman

themuzicman

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Mystery said:
godrulz rejects the essentials of the faith, as do you. He does not believe in Christ's Once for All sacrifice Hebrews 10 . He denies the identity of those who are saved. He believes that righteousness is volitional and not a gift. (There are more, but that's all I care to speak of now with you.)
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And you would claim infallible inerrancy with regard to your beliefs about these?

I affirm the essentials. I believe the gospel message of Christ in you. I believe in the righteousness of God. I believe that Christ's sacrifice cleanses those who are in Him from all sin, for all time.

I have had this discussion way to many times. And I don't have enough respect for you to honor you with anymore answers.
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Must be getting hot. You're running from the kitchen.

Muz
 
Philetus

Philetus

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godrulz said:
Hey, if Philetus gets to be with God, then so do I (we are attached at the hip and share a common, general faith).

Then again, maybe you mean when we see Him at judgment and He says: depart from me, I never knew you?
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It's useless. This has become Mystery's thread. Want to start a discussion on Open Theism?
 
Philetus

Philetus

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Mystery said:
I believe that they can be known, and that I know them. That is my affirmation.
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1Pe 5:5
Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
 
Mystery

Mystery

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Philetus said:
It's useless. This has become Mystery's thread. Want to start a discussion on Open Theism?
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You guys are the ones asking me the questions. If you want to talk about something else, then ask me the right questions, or don't ask me any questions at all.

Delmar asked me questions about free will, and I answered them. You chose to take it elsewhere, so four fingers are pointing back at you.
 
Mystery

Mystery

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Philetus said:
1Pe 5:5
Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
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Then according to you, the gospel CANNOT be known, and if anyone says they do know the gospel, they are proud?

You're a moron. :dunce:
 
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godrulz

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Philetus said:
Hey GR,

Would you say that the righteousness of Christ in which believers are clothed is a gift from God?
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Yes. Our righteousness (self) is as filthy rags. He alone transfers us from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light. We cannot earn salvation. We cannot muster up

I do not think faith is a gift from God like Calvinists do. I believe eternal life/salvation is the gift and faith is a condition (death is grounds).

We probably need to qualify semantics, etc.

Perhaps Mystery objects to my understanding that some things are volitional and sanctification is not identical to justification and is synergistic, not monergistic. Themes of obedience vs disobedience are not just in Deuteronomy, but also in Pauline thought. There is also a difference between one choice/motive/thought/act (vice or virtue) and our overall standing as saint (set apart to God) or sinner (condemned and relationally separated from God until physically separated from His presence, in the lake of fire).

Soteriology is the biggest Christian debate for centuries since the initial Christological debates in the first few centuries. I simply cannot accept that one person has simplisticly resolved all the issues and negates the precious faith of those who are still thinking things through at a deeper, nuanced level.

All in favor, say aye.:guitar:
 
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