Posted by Ask Mr. Religion
Suppose a person is unable to choose because of some mental incapacity. Is it ignoble for someone to choose for them, especially if the person choosing (1) is within their rights to so act for the incapacitated, and (2) has only the best interests of the incapacitated person at heart?
Posted by Dave
That person would, indeed, be considered noble by all those he helped, but not by the incapacitated he did not help, for they will be :execute:
decapitated
Posted by Ask Mr. Religion
May be true enough, if I were actually implying something about all persons. But I am not. Please read carefully. I am asking about the one, or maybe some, or even many for that matter, but not all of the incapacitated. Nor have I stated or implied that the incapacitated persons in question deserve any such assistance. You've taken what I write too far in an attempt to be clever.
Don't strain to interpret what I am writing, simply take the plain meaning.
Posted by Dave
Don't strain my little quip, my meaning is simple and clear.
I want to deal with "total deparvity", this house of cards stands or falls with it's first premise, without the "T" there is no "TULIP". Biblical theology of salvation is built on the Biblical revelation that man is created "tripartite" not a "duality", then all the verses about what we call "free will" make sense, but I will admit, if man were a "duality", we would have a problem.
I Thessalonians 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
We make decisions in our "soul" not in our "spirit". Our spirits are "dead" but our ability to understand the gospel is in our "mind" which is part of our soul. If our "mind", "emotions", and our "will" are part of our "spirit" then being spiritually dead would mean we would not be able to think, act, or feel anything.
Posted by Clete
Dave's response to this was brilliant and it was entirely on target and blew the whole argument right out of the water.
My response to this would be to point out the Calvinist's amazing ability to compartmentalize their theology to the point that such errors of logic can take place. It is remarkable to me how the Calvinist just forgets about exhaustive predestination/sovereignty when discussing total depravity and any number of other doctrines.
Posted by Ask Mr. Religion
I believe that all actions of persons, including their sinful actions, occur only with God’s permission... In some sense, this all must be in accordance with what God has desired and purposed.
:doh:
If our actions are purposed by God, then, they do not occur with God's permission as our own actions. You can't have it both ways and claim your are a rational person, or perphaps, you would want us to believe that the Bible contradicts itself.
As Strong says, "Logically, though not chronologically, decree comes before foreknowledge...
How stupid is this! If God is timeless there is no "before" or "after", God would decree, know, and create in the same eternal moment, making our existence as eternal as God's is.
And since God knows their destiny before they are created, and then proceeds to create...
:dizzy:
Again, a timeless God does not know "before" he creates, stop contradicting yourself.
God leaves a person to his own nature, knowing that the person will sin.
:jawdrop:
No! No! You made it very clear that God foreordained sin.
"Since these events are foreknown, they are fixed and settled; and nothing can have fixed and settled them except the good pleasure of God, freely and unchangeably foreordaining whatever comes to pass...
God's decree does not take away man's liberty;
:rotfl:
Stop! Please, your killing me!