patman
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E4E just wants to confuse everything so he can pretend he is right.
ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2
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E4E just wants to confuse everything so he can pretend he is right.
When have you ever addressed this argument?
I cannot recall ever discussing it with you.
If we did, I cannot recall anything you posted.
Oh wait... was it you e4e who said that the verse meant....
....for now I [you] know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”
Are you the one who thinks it means that now Abraham knew?
drbrumley
Well-known member
I mean think about it, here is the whole story.
1 Now it came to pass after these things that God tested Abraham, and said to him, “Abraham!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
2 Then He said, “Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you.”
3 So Abraham rose early in the morning and saddled his donkey, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son; and he split the wood for the burnt offering, and arose and went to the place of which God had told him. 4 Then on the third day Abraham lifted his eyes and saw the place afar off. 5 And Abraham said to his young men, “Stay here with the donkey; the lad[a] and I will go yonder and worship, and we will come back to you.”
6 So Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering and laid it on Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife, and the two of them went together. 7 But Isaac spoke to Abraham his father and said, “My father!”
And he said, “Here I am, my son.”
Then he said, “Look, the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?”
8 And Abraham said, “My son, God will provide for Himself the lamb for a burnt offering.” So the two of them went together.
9 Then they came to the place of which God had told him. And Abraham built an altar there and placed the wood in order; and he bound Isaac his son and laid him on the altar, upon the wood. 10 And Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to slay his son.
11 But the Angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!”
So he said, “Here I am.”
12 And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”
13 Then Abraham lifted his eyes and looked, and there behind him was a ram caught in a thicket by its horns. So Abraham went and took the ram, and offered it up for a burnt offering instead of his son. 14 And Abraham called the name of the place, The-LORD-Will-Provide; as it is said to this day, “In the Mount of the LORD it shall be provided.”
15 Then the Angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time out of heaven, 16 and said: “By Myself I have sworn, says the LORD, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son— 17 blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies. 18 In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.” 19 So Abraham returned to his young men, and they rose and went together to Beersheba; and Abraham dwelt at Beersheba.
In the order of events
1. God tells Abraham to offer Isaac as a sacrifice.
2. The Angel of the Lord stops him. And then speaks in the first person as God.
3. The Angel of the Lord brings a second message.
SOURCE!
1 Now it came to pass after these things that God tested Abraham, and said to him, “Abraham!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
2 Then He said, “Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you.”
3 So Abraham rose early in the morning and saddled his donkey, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son; and he split the wood for the burnt offering, and arose and went to the place of which God had told him. 4 Then on the third day Abraham lifted his eyes and saw the place afar off. 5 And Abraham said to his young men, “Stay here with the donkey; the lad[a] and I will go yonder and worship, and we will come back to you.”
6 So Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering and laid it on Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife, and the two of them went together. 7 But Isaac spoke to Abraham his father and said, “My father!”
And he said, “Here I am, my son.”
Then he said, “Look, the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?”
8 And Abraham said, “My son, God will provide for Himself the lamb for a burnt offering.” So the two of them went together.
9 Then they came to the place of which God had told him. And Abraham built an altar there and placed the wood in order; and he bound Isaac his son and laid him on the altar, upon the wood. 10 And Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to slay his son.
11 But the Angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!”
So he said, “Here I am.”
12 And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”
13 Then Abraham lifted his eyes and looked, and there behind him was a ram caught in a thicket by its horns. So Abraham went and took the ram, and offered it up for a burnt offering instead of his son. 14 And Abraham called the name of the place, The-LORD-Will-Provide; as it is said to this day, “In the Mount of the LORD it shall be provided.”
15 Then the Angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time out of heaven, 16 and said: “By Myself I have sworn, says the LORD, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son— 17 blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies. 18 In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.” 19 So Abraham returned to his young men, and they rose and went together to Beersheba; and Abraham dwelt at Beersheba.
In the order of events
1. God tells Abraham to offer Isaac as a sacrifice.
2. The Angel of the Lord stops him. And then speaks in the first person as God.
3. The Angel of the Lord brings a second message.
SOURCE!
Great point, the story makes no sense unless understood as written.
Ask Mr. Religion
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The 'since' here is better rendered 'seeing' as in the ESV. In "now I know" the actual Hebrew rendering would be "now I make it known". Moreover, the 'fear' is actually a metonymy to 'obedience'. In other words, "for now I make it known that you are obedient to God, seeing you have not withheld your son". Hence, the point was to manifest to the world, including anyone that would hear or read this account of Abraham, that Abraham was a man who was obedient to God.
I apologize. I am devoting much time and attention to my questions and responses--there is no other conversation going on around me. My answer must not have been clear so let me try once more. God knew from eternity what Abraham would be and would do, including "fearing" (obeying) God. I believe that was your choice 'D'. Please note that I am going to answer similarly for all things related to what God knows, for I do not believe that God accretes knowledge.It's funny, you seem to respond to questions I dont ask. Maybe you are having another conversation with someone else and you are getting confused?
I didn't ask.... when did God know Abraham would be His instrument?
I did ask.... when did God know Abraham feared Him?
I even gave you a pool of possible answers so you would be sure to answer the correct question and yet you still missed it.
drbrumley
Well-known member
Ok, since God did know what Abraham was going to do since year 1, month 1 day 1 hour 1 and minute 1 and second 1, how do you account for God saying NOW he knows? I mean it says what it says, unless your saying it is an error, in which I would like to see evidence of it. Help a brother out would ya!
The Hebrew scholar I communicate with does not agree with that.
OK, fair enough. I disagree but you already knew that.
AMR I wish you would participate in more topics, it would be fun to team up on the same side in a different debate on another topic. For instance, it would be fun to battle some atheists together! :up:
Any other questions or things you would like to ask of me?
drbrumley
Well-known member
AMR says," 12 And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I make it known that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”
Say What AMR? Why would God need other people to know Abraham fears God. I thought that is supposed to be between God and Abraham?
Who needed to know Abraham feared God? Shoot Abraham could have told you that even before the event.
Say What AMR? Why would God need other people to know Abraham fears God. I thought that is supposed to be between God and Abraham?
Who needed to know Abraham feared God? Shoot Abraham could have told you that even before the event.
Nang
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Well, I appreciate learning about Abraham's faith provided to him by God, as recorded in the Scriptures . . .considering it is unlikely Abraham will get around to providing me first-hand witness, before we sit down to compare notes together, at the marriage supper of the Lamb. (Matt. 8:11)
Nang
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AMR wrote: "Do you believe that there are times that what God thought would happen did not come about?"
Can you elaborate on why you feel confident that, given God's sometimes fallible anticipation, that He can omni-competently react to what His free creatures decide to do (how does a false anticipation help God deal with the future challenges of mankind's history)? For example, I assume that one reason you would be confident is that God can intervene in human affairs when needed to "set things right".
No additional examples are necessary, Knight. Thanks.
Can you elaborate on why you feel confident that, given God's sometimes fallible anticipation, that He can omni-competently react to what His free creatures decide to do (how does a false anticipation help God deal with the future challenges of mankind's history)? For example, I assume that one reason you would be confident is that God can intervene in human affairs when needed to "set things right".
Lon
Well-known member
...and which book is it written in? Who is recording it? What is His purpose in doing so?
Answers: Genesis, Moses, so that Israel may know both what happened and what to think about it.
Quick last question: "Who is reading it now and trying to understand it?"
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drb,
I believe that I stated "Hence, the point was to manifest to the world, including anyone that would hear or read this account of Abraham, that Abraham was a man who was obedient to God."
Had this account not been written, for one thing we would not have one of the most powerful lessons in the Scriptures.
Here we find a man who was obedient to God, yet a man whose faith was remarkable. Note how in Gen. 22:5, Abraham stated that he and his son would return, despite having been told by God to sacrifice Isaac. Abraham possessed the faith that God would raise up Isaac if he indeed would sacrifice him. Yet, there was no event of such a resurrection by God even recorded in the Hebrew writings at this time. But Abraham believed it could happen. How many of us possesses such faith? God is not asking anyone to sacrifice their sons to Him, yet we all fall short, and are humbled by, the faith Abraham demonstrated when asked so much more.
Who can imagine what was going through Abraham's mind during that three-day journey? Could any of us have made that journey with our child, a child that would have been born out of very special circumstances like Isaac, without running away by the end of the first day? We are not given any insight into the thoughts of Abraham, only that he is confident that "God himself will provide" (v. 8). When we face trials in our own lives, how often do we trust that "God himself will provide"?
Verse 11 (Abraham, Abraham) is the first appearance of the ten name duplications in the Scriptures. God speaks the first seven to man (Gen. 22:11; Gen. 46:2; Exo. 3:4; 1 Sam. 3:10; Luke 10:41; Luke 22:31; Acts 9:4) and the remaining three are Matthew 7:21-22; Matthew 23:37; Mark 15:34. Each time you see this in the Scriptures, you can be sure that something very important is being introduced.
There is so much more in this passage besides its lessons of faith. But these are deeper theological lessons of justification, works, and more, better left for another thread.
Lon
Well-known member
The Hebrew scholar I communicate with does not agree with that.
OK, fair enough. I disagree but you already knew that.
AMR I wish you would participate in more topics, it would be fun to team up on the same side in a different debate on another topic. For instance, it would be fun to battle some atheists together! :up:
Any other questions or things you would like to ask of me?
I'd like to see that scholar. It does not mean what he thinks it means.
AMR is correct here. Just grab Strong's. It is plain as day. Do a couple of comparisons of the word.
Genesis 3:5 "know"
4:1 "knew"
15:13 "know"
Go through it, none of these can be "I know." The verb is just "know" and the translation in Genesis 22 is "know."
ויאמר אל־תשׁלח ידך אל־הנער ואל־תעשׂ לו מאומה כי עתה ידע תי כי־ירא אלהים אתה ולא חשׂכת את־בנך את־יחידך ממני׃
(same word ידע-Yada, didn't want to pull you too far away from your AMR discussion)
patman
Active member
AMR,
The point of the test was to see how much faith he had. But why do you change the person interested? Why did God need to prove to us what he already knew? Why couldn't he just command us to have faith in Abraham's faith the same way he asks us to have faith in his resurrection?
There is no way re-write scripture to fit our theologies. If we find ourselves doing so, our theology must be rewritten, not the scripture. God tested Abraham, he found out the answer, and then he knew.
The verse doesn't say "now the world knows" or "Now heaven knows", but "now I know."
Also, it is fun to look for more in scripture than is at face value, but we must be careful.
You forgot the 11th time scripture says a name twice. Psalm 22.
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By the same logic one could very well ask why we have any narratives in the scriptures. You are not making much sense here.
I have carefully explained the verse. In previous posts I have also explained in much detail my position on God's knowledge. Your mere assertions to the contrary are unpersuasive.
No I use the Mark passage for this one, since it is a quote of the Psalm.
Thanks for stopping by.
Lon
Well-known member
Moses is writing down what God is telling him to convey important truths to the Israelites. The lesson is "What does it take to please God?"
The answer is "that God must have pre-eminence in your life."
Abraham's story is recorded to convey that lesson.
now...............I know....that......thou.......fearest...........God
Henceforth....know
....truly.....you...morally revere......Elohim
I can feel confident in this because of the numerous examples in God's word.
He could indeed, but that doesn't change that the fact that things didn't turn out as expected so I am not sure I get the question.
God isn't worried that we will think less of Him if He anticipates something that does not comes to pass. After all... it's us that are the ones dropping the ball and failing His expectation (oh, and just an FYI: there are also examples of man not failing when God expected that he would fail).
Apparently God would rather that we have genuine freedom than be right about every prediction He made about us. God values us more than His own accuracy regarding us - Praise the Lord for that!
Furthermore.... the predictions themselves (the very fact that He makes them) is a glaring piece of evidence that we have freewill. Maybe it's my turn to ask a question.
Why does God tell us that He gives us prophecy?
Asked another way....
What is the purpose of prophecy according to God?
patman
Active member
You can't ignore psalms 22. Even if Jesus references it, it is still two different people using it.
I know you won't be persuaded, the logic by itself isn't the only point. You have to take the whole thought. Your explanations require we not read the verse as it is written.
No matter how much you reword it, you cannot deny God changed his command to Abraham. Do God's commands change?
patman
Active member
Moses is writing down what God is telling him to convey important truths to the Israelites. The lesson is "What does it take to please God?"
The answer is "that God must have pre-eminence in your life."
Abraham's story is recorded to convey that lesson.
now...............I know....that......thou.......fearest...........God
Henceforth....know
Howdy Lon
I agree, except that the moment that God knew was "when" it happened. It is just what was said. It is one of those verses that a lot can be taken from, and one of those is it helps the O.T. position.
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