seekinganswers said:
First of all I am not a philosopher.
Don't be silly. Of course you are. All Christians are philosophers, or should be. I was using the stereotype to convey a point which I thought was clear.
Bob's position holds much more closely to the philosophy of our age than does mine. Bob's distinction within God of "character" vs. "person" is entirely based on the philosophy of Descartes and other dualistic and individualistic thinkers of the 17th century.
Bob calles Descartes an idiot in the same post (perhaps even the portion I quoted) in which he presents an iron clad case for how we can know objectively that God is good.
If you want to accuse someone of being grounded in philosophy look at Bob, for his categories are given to him by modern philosophy (and I might add are entirely based on the distinction of the spiritual from the secular which has led to the resulting fields of philosophy and theology).
If you weren't a philosopher you could not have written this or the previous sentence, nor any of your last several posts for that matter. You have philosophy dripping from every pore of your body. Do yourself a favor and don't deny the obvious, okay? (Being a philosopher isn't a bad thing in and of itself, by the way.)
My statements are ones that no philosopher would affirm, for what I am saying requires that they agree to presuppositions that Modern Philosophy would condemn.
You do not have to be in agreement with anyone to be a philosopher, Michael. In fact, disagreeing with virtually everyone is a common hallmark of most of the good ones.
My initial presupposition is that God exists. There is a God and this God has been revealed to us as the Creator, as the Trinity witnessed in the scriptures (this is my starting point). My second presupposition is that all of the Creation consists in this God. In other words, if our God were not sustaining the world and us, the world and us would both cease to be (we would revert to utter chaos). I like what Paul has to say on the matter: "In God we live and move and have our being," and "By God and through God and to God are all things." So the life that we witness in this world only is life in as much as it is grounded in the Creator. I am no deist, who sees a God whose act of Creation sets things into motion to be upheld by certain laws that continue to function in the absence of the Creator. God is not a cause as far as I am concerned. And the Creation is not self-consistent. God is sovereign, which means God sustains our life, and if God is not sovereign over the Creation, the Creation has no life whatsoever. God is the source of life in the Creation, not the cause, and as the source of life, all life is sustained in God. If a person will not agree with these presuppositions, these givens, then they cannot agree with what I am saying.
Van Till himself couldn't have said it any better. You are without question a Christian philosopher, complete with a vocabulary that is loaded with meaning that no one but those familiar with philosophy would have the slightest clue is indended by the words you've just said.
Oh, yes! I see quite clearly.
...you want me to allow you to frame the discussion with regards to God, and I will not allow you to draw me into your discussion of God as grounded in the secular philosophy of our world.
Who said anything about secular philosophy? You're the one citing Descartes, Plato, and who knows who else, not me. I simply asked whether you thought God is righteous. Which was a question that followed logically from your comments.
You claim religiosity when in fact you are rooted in the very grounding of the Modern World (you even claim that you have been given your freedom to believe by a secular institution of men [by secular I mean an institution grounded in men's observations of the world as opposed to being grounded in God]). I gave you an answer to your question before, and you continue to ignore that answer: God is not "good"; God is goodness. God is not loving; God is love.
Right! And this comment makes you a kook! I didn't ignore anything. I read every word and the tactic I chose to use in order to demonstrate that you are neck deep in lunatic philosophy was to simply ask you a point blank question that is utterly intuitive to every single person on the planet who calls themselves a Christian and who hasn't spent too much time with their heads burried in something other than the Bible.
That is my answer, and I will not allow you to turn my words in such a way as to affirm the categories that you have accepted, because you have been deceived by the philosophies of this world, by Descartes and the likes of him.
Would it surprise you to know that I have never knowingly read a single word of Decartes' and don't have the slightest idea what he taught aside from what you have told me? You have spent lots more time studying Descartes than I have. And I have no intention of twisting your words. In fact, letting someone's own words do the arguing for me is one of my favorite things to do!
Further, where's all the hostiliy coming from? I've been nothing but respectful and substantively on point in response to your own words.
The desception runs so deep that you would present Descartes' views (especially in the bifurcation of God into "person" and "character"; the abstract eternal God vs. the temporal God who acts) and would present this secular view of God as being Christian.
:chuckle:
You're so funny! I don't even know what this gibberish means!
But I suppose you will only hear in my words as a judgment against you, and will assume that I am attacking your person as opposed to presenting you with a categorically distinct view of God, for anyone who will reject the supposedly "neutral" categories given to us by the Enlightenment is automatically labelled an intollerant bigot by our world today.
Look, you are your own worst enemy. I have no need to attack you at all. I think you're a kookoo head because you think you've really got it figured out but are possitively unwilling to acknowledge that God is good, in spite of the Bible's having done so repeatedly (see below). What more needs to be said in opposition to your view? As right as it is, in many respects, you've taken it way past what is wise or even reasonable.
Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, His work is perfect; For all are justice, A God of truth and without injustice; Righteous and upright is He.
Ezra 9:15 O LORD God of Israel, You are righteous, for we are left as a remnant, as it is this day. Here we are before You, in our guilt, though no one can stand before You because of this!
Job 4:17 Can a mortal be more righteous than God?Can a man be more pure than his Maker?
Psalm 7:9 Oh, let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end,But establish the just; For the righteous God tests the hearts and minds.
Psalm 35:24 Vindicate me, O LORD my God, according to Your righteousness;And let them not rejoice over me.
Psalm 50:6 Let the heavens declare His righteousness,For God Himself is Judge. Selah
Psalm 51:14 Deliver me from the guilt of bloodshed, O God,The God of my salvation, And my tongue shall sing aloud of Your righteousness.
Psalm 65:5 By awesome You will answer us,O God of our salvation, You who are the confidence of all the ends of the earth, And of the far-off seas;
Psalm 71:16 I will go in the strength of the Lord GOD;I will make mention of Your righteousness, of Yours only.
Psalm 71:19 Also Your righteousness, O God, is very high,; O God, who is like You?
Psalm 116:5 Gracious is the LORD, and righteous;Yes, our God is merciful.
Proverbs 21:12 The righteous God wisely considers the house of the wicked, Overthrowing the wicked for their wickedness.
Isaiah 5:16 But the LORD of hosts shall be exalted in judgment, And God who is holy shall be hallowed in righteousness. (i.e. God is holy BECAUSE He is righeous!)
Isaiah 41:10 Fear not, for I am with you; Be not dismayed, for I am your God. I will strengthen you, Yes, I will help you, I will uphold you with My righteous right hand.’
Daniel 9:14 Therefore the LORD has kept the disaster in mind, and brought it upon us; for the LORD our God is righteous , though we have not obeyed His voice.
Romans 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”
Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;
Romans 3:25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God.
2 Thessalonians 1:4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, 5 which is of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since with tribulation those who trouble you
Revelation 16:7 And I heard another from the altar saying, “Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are Your judgments.”
Resting in Him,
Clete