ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

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godrulz

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RobE said:
Godrulz,

We've gone over and over many of these points. Let me ask you if you believe God, the creator, is able to understand His creation fully or only partially, and why?

Rob


God has perfect past and present knowledge as well as a vast ability to think and reason and extrapolate. He understands us fully, He knows our hearts and circumstances, but this does not change the fact that He knows contingencies and contingent and certainties as certain. Take a course in modal logic (I have not, nor am I an expert) and get back to us.
 

Clete

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RobE said:
It's a product of God's free will and therefore according to your position UNKNOWABLE!

Rob
What? :kookoo:

It's God's own will you dork! God can know what His own will is for crying out loud! :hammer:


Further, the motions of bodies through space are not products of God's free will, at least not directly. If they were, we would not be able to predict them at all. I understand that He is the one who set the heavens in motion and determined the laws by which those motions would be governed and He did so by His own will but that doesn't mean that Halley's Comet is where it is today because God set it there. It is where it is because that's where it ended up, that's all. You Calvinists believe that the only reason anything moves at all is because God pushes it around by force but that is not Biblical nor is there any evidence of that at all. God designed the universe to work the way it works and He maintains it to whatever degree is necessary and thus everything continues to exist because of God but if He had to physically move the planets on their courses through space Himself it would be a pretty lousy design. I wonder how far the internal combustion engine would have gotten had the engineer who designed it been forced to sit under the hood and push the pistons down by hand 1500 times a minute in order to make the thing work? It would have been such a lousy design that today, no one would even know what one is.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

godrulz

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RobE said:
Originally Posted by RobE

Rob​


Godrulz,

Please tell me what kinds of things could stop the Superbowl from occuring that are outside of God's control. When you consider this I want you to try to figure out what you can do if God doesn't allow you to do it. Don't you see. God is in complete control one way or the other.

Rob


God does not control every hurricane. He set weather pattern possibilities in place. What man is doing to the environment can be a factor. A hurricane or tornado or flood is not always an act of God (it can be; it can also be demonic based on Jesus' dealing with a storm). God could intervene, but He does not always do so.

God has also allowed significant freedom. The World Trade Center attacks could have been stopped by God, but they were not. They were not originated in the mind or plan of God. So, a terrorist attack could thwart the Superbowl.

The Second Coming of Christ is in the hands of God exclusively. If He returns tomorrow, then the game is off! He would know about this or a terrorist attack (that the authorities could thwart it is another possibility vs certainty). God does not always intervene or micromanage. He can also respond creatively as history unfolds. A deterministic view would ensure exhaustive foreknowledge, but this is a Muslim/Calvinistic view, not a biblical view.

God is in complete control, but sometimes He choses not to control everything. He lets history unfold. Do you really think God controls all the sports events, gambling, and video game playing in the world?
 

godrulz

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Rob confuses free will contingencies with cause-effect.

I see why you eventually get tired of dealing with certain people. It may come across as harsh or arrogant, but I think I am at the same place. I believe truth will eventually penetrate cloudy thinking if the person is reasonably intellectually honest. There is some onus on us to present clear, credible arguments in our persuasion.
 

Philetus

New member
godrulz said:
Rob confuses free will contingencies with cause-effect.

I see why you eventually get tired of dealing with certain people. It may come across as harsh or arrogant, but I think I am at the same place. I believe truth will eventually penetrate cloudy thinking if the person is reasonably intellectually honest. There is some onus on us to present clear, credible arguments in our persuasion.



Godrulz.
I’ve been reading and in the last million or so posts, RobE has not posted one shred of content. Only the same questions over and over again.

RobE, I’ve been trying to decide if you are a genius or a buffoon. I am leaning toward the conclusion that you are one smart clown just messing with us. Based on your posts you are either very confused or just being dishonest. Again, I hope I’m wrong but, only you can correct that assumption by posting something with out a question mark behind it.

Godrulz, I have learned a great deal in reading your excelent posts within this illogical maze of challenges that offers no substantial evidence that you are being understood or that the OV position is at least respected. Shoot, I think if Jesus were a hyper Calvinist (and no, Clete, I don’t think he is) he would at least understand even if he were not entirely convinced. Godrulz, you have been most patient and courteous.

A very wise man receintly said, "Don’t underestimate the blinding power of preexistent theologies." And like my granddaddy used to say, “If you quit fishing because the little fish steals your bait, you’ll starve to death.”

Enjoy the superbowl brothers! and remember, sometimes it all comes down to a single play. Just ask the Colts. I'll be out for a few days.
Posted with hesitation,
Philetus
 

godrulz

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I hope that we can at least demonstrate that the Open View is plausible, if not probable. It is less problematic than other views, but this does not mean that it has all the answers. Most of the proof texts or objections have been anticipated or dealt with by Open Theist authors. Let us remain 'open' and teachable. Truth sets free. :cheers:
 

RobE

New member
Clete said:
Rob,

No one is suggesting that the world is out of control and beyond God's ability to keep a handle on or keep track of. Please try to limit your arguments to positions we actually hold. It's a wast of everyone's time (including your own) to argue against ideas which no one has put forward or even believes.

What's not in God's control?

Rob
 

RobE

New member
Clete said:
What? :kookoo:

It's God's own will you dork! God can know what His own will is for crying out loud! :hammer:


Further, the motions of bodies through space are not products of God's free will, at least not directly. If they were, we would not be able to predict them at all. I understand that He is the one who set the heavens in motion and determined the laws by which those motions would be governed and He did so by His own will but that doesn't mean that Halley's Comet is where it is today because God set it there. It is where it is because that's where it ended up, that's all. You Calvinists believe that the only reason anything moves at all is because God pushes it around by force but that is not Biblical nor is there any evidence of that at all. God designed the universe to work the way it works and He maintains it to whatever degree is necessary and thus everything continues to exist because of God but if He had to physically move the planets on their courses through space Himself it would be a pretty lousy design. I wonder how far the internal combustion engine would have gotten had the engineer who designed it been forced to sit under the hood and push the pistons down by hand 1500 times a minute in order to make the thing work? It would have been such a lousy design that today, no one would even know what one is.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Would this same engineer know how a internal combustion engine works and what effects would come from it?

Rob
 

RobE

New member
godrulz said:
Rob confuses free will contingencies with cause-effect.

I see why you eventually get tired of dealing with certain people. It may come across as harsh or arrogant, but I think I am at the same place. I believe truth will eventually penetrate cloudy thinking if the person is reasonably intellectually honest. There is some onus on us to present clear, credible arguments in our persuasion.

Tell me an effect without a cause.
Tell me how this came about.

Rob
 

Clete

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Silver Subscriber
RobE said:
What's not in God's control?

Rob
What do you mean by control?

If you mean direct meticulous control then there are a lot of things that would fall under the category of not being under God's control. But this misses the point. The point is that meticulous control of a thing is not necessary to maintain control of that thing.

I can control the direction of my car without have meticulous control over how many pieces of debris are on the road way or precisely how many ounces of rubber exist on my tires. In fact personally have virtually no control over countless things that have could have an effect on my car's direction and yet I am able to maintain control of my car. Meticulous control is not implied when one claims to have control over something, period.

Would this same engineer know how a internal combustion engine works and what effects would come from it?
How is this relevant? The point is that if the engine were designed properly there would be no need to meticulously control every aspect of its operation. It would do the work it was designed to do with little or no input from the designer aside from needed maintenance.

Tell me an effect without a cause.
No one has suggested that there is any effect without a cause rather that any set of causes has (or at least could have) more than one possible effect and that the determining factor (in the context of this discussion) is our will.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 
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RobE

New member
Clete said:
What do you mean by control?

I mean does God have the power to allow it or to stop it.

Clete said:
If you mean direct meticulous control then there are a lot of things that would fall under the category of not being under God's control. But this misses the point. The point is that meticulous control of a thing is not necessary to maintain control of that thing.

I agree.

Clete said:
I can control the direction of my car without have meticulous control over how many pieces of debris are on the road way or precisely how many ounces of rubber exist on my tires. In fact personally have virtually no control over countless things that have could have an effect on my car's direction and yet I am able to maintain control of my car. Meticulous control is not implied when one claims to have control over something, period.

Yet if any of these things effected your car it would be outside of your control.

Clete said:
How is this relevant? The point is that if the engine were designed properly there would be no need to meticulously control every aspect of its operation. It would do the work it was designed to do with little or no input from the designer aside from needed maintenance.

It's relevant to the extent that the designer(creator) understands the outcomes of their design or creation.

Clete said:
No one has suggested that there is any effect without a cause rather that any set of causes has (or at least could have) more than one possible effect and that the determining factor (in the context of this discussion) is our will.

For your definition of freewill to be valid there can't be any prior cause of your free will(effect).

In fact, for you to do other than your will, you would have to rebel against yourself. The words "will" and its qualifier "not" semantically tell this.

My will is to do good.
I will not do otherwise.

So to do(will) or to do otherwise(will not) is invalid because we always do our own will(when it's available to us) no matter the effect. In other words no one ever does otherwise. It's impossible to ursurp ones own will or it couldn't be said, in fact, to be their will.

Now let's not confuse will and desire. When Paul speaks of his desire to be holy vs. Paul's own nature you see the conflict. Paul wishes to be aligned with our Lord, but fights against his own nature(will) to do so. The result. Paul works to change Paul's will, fighting the good fight and running the good race, so that Paul might be found acceptable to God. In every aspect of our lives we fight our own nature and attempt to align ourselves with Jesus Christ.

Where does the strength to fight and change ourselves come from unless from The Holy Spirit. The scriptures point out this fact without reservation. Saying this in no means lessens the significance of the desire we have within ourselves to lessen our will and align ourselves with His will; and in effect, let the Old(willful) man to become the New(in His will) man.

To summarize:

God created me.
God created the world and all the causes that effect in my life.
God desires my salvation.
God saved me through His own sacrifice.
God sought me out.
God did all of this because He loves me.
God made me in such a way and the influences in such a way that I desire to be His.

What did I really have to do,

Rob

Hint: Anytime a gift is given the exchange isn't complete until...........
 

godrulz

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Uri:

Contingent choices involving the will may or may not happen. There is an element of uncertainty. Different scenarios also develop depending on what others do or do not do.

Cause and effect talk more properly applies to inanimate creation, not moral creation.

You may be leaning to a view called Molinism that proposes 'middle knowledge' and counterfactuals of freedom. WIlliam Lane Craig espouses this. I do not believe it resolves the issues like classic Open Theism does (his is a sub-type of OT).

I think you also are talking about probabilities more than the distinction between actual/possible/necessary/contingent (modal logic).
 

themuzicman

Well-known member
*ahem*

Molinism predates the Open View by several hundred years, although it does try to address the same problem, albiet unsuccessfully. It was first proposed by a Priest by the name of Molina. I don't remember the year.

Michael
 

RobE

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Post towards Godrulz through Muzicman

Post towards Godrulz through Muzicman

themuzicman said:
*ahem*

Molinism predates the Open View by several hundred years, although it does try to address the same problem, albiet unsuccessfully. It was first proposed by a Priest by the name of Molina. I don't remember the year.

Michael

Quite right Michael except your assertion that it was an unsuccessful position.

For a better understanding of my position you need to understand Molinism:

Molinism combats the heresy of the Reformers, according to which both sinners and just have lost freedom of will. It maintains and strenuously defends the Tridentine dogma which teaches:

that freedom of will has not been destroyed by original sin, and
that this freedom remains unimpaired under the influence of Divine grace (Cf. Sess. VI, can iv-v in Denzinger, "Enchiridion", ed. Bannwart, Freiburg, 1908, nn. 814-15).​

Freedom is the power of the will to act or not to act, to act this or that way; whereas it is the characteristic of necessary causes, as animals and inanimate beings, to produce their effects by an intrinsic necessity. Freedom of the will is a consequence of intelligence, and as such the most precious gift of man, an endowment which he can never lose without annihilating his own nature. Man must of necessity be free in every state of life, actual or possible, whether that state be the purely natural (status purœ naturœ), or the state of original justice in paradise (status justitiœ originalis), or the state of fallen nature (status naturœ lapsœ), or the state of regeneration (status naturœ reparatœ). Were man to be deprived of freedom of will, he would necessarily degenerate in his nature and sink to the level of the animal. Since the purely natural state, devoid of supernatural grace and lacking a supernatural justice, never existed, and since the state of original justice has not been re-established by Christ's Redemption, man's present state alone is to be taken into consideration in solving the problem of the relation between grace and free will. In spite of original sin and concupiscence man is still free, not only with reference to ethical good and evil in his natural actions, but also in his supernatural salutary works in which Divine grace co-operates with his will. Molinism escaped every suspicion of Pelagianism by laying down at the outset that the soul with its faculties (the intellect and will) must be first constituted by prevenient grace a supernatural principle of operation in actu primo, before it can, in conjunction with the help of the supernatural concursus of God, elicit a salutary act in actu secundo. Thus, the salutary act is itself an act of grace rather than of the will; it is the common work of God and man, because and in so far as the supernatural element of the act is due to God and its vitality and freedom to man. It must not be imagined, however, that the will has such an influence on grace that its consent conditions or strengthens the power of grace; the fact is rather that the supernatural power of grace is first transformed into the vital energy of the will, and then, as a supernatural concursus, excites and accompanies the free and salutary act. In other words, as a helping or co-operating grace (gratia adiuvans seu cooperans), it produces the act conjointly with the will. According to this explanation, not only does Divine grace make a supernatural act possible, but the act itself, though free, is wholly dependent on grace, because it is grace which makes the salutary act possible and which stimulates and assists in producing it. Thus the act is produced entirely by God as First Cause (Causa prima), and also entirely by the will as second cause (causa secunda). The unprejudiced mind must acknowledge that this exposition is far from incurring the suspicion of Pelagianism or Semipelagianism.​

Pay close attention to the part I highlighted. Now, any congruence of thought suggested by Sanders, Pinnock, or Boyd are obviously an attempt to ursurp this doctrine for their own uses.

Click here for the entire article on Molinism

Your Friend,

Rob
 

godrulz

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themuzicman said:
I don't want to siderail this into a discussin of Molinism.


It is a possible, relevant concept, but would complicate things and be beyond most of our expertise.

The post sounds philosophical and makes self-evident free will more complicated than we need to make it.

I would also agree that total depravity does not mean total inability. We are still personal beings after the fall, though His image is marred in us (vs destroyed).
 

RobE

New member
godrulz said:
It is a possible, relevant concept, but would complicate things and be beyond most of our expertise.

The post sounds philosophical and makes self-evident free will more complicated than we need to make it.

I would also agree that total depravity does not mean total inability. We are still personal beings after the fall, though His image is marred in us (vs destroyed).

However I reject Total depravity outright. You can't simply cut the knot of the whole debate as the Pelagians did when they denied Christ's Grace and God's foreknowledge. They placed man's free will as the only active agent just as Open Theism does. Open Theism denies this and therefore is accountable to explain how Grace works in its theology.

Rob
 

godrulz

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RobE said:
However I reject Total depravity outright. You can't simply cut the knot of the whole debate as the Pelagians did when they denied Christ's Grace and God's foreknowledge. They placed man's free will as the only active agent just as Open Theism does. Open Theism denies this and therefore is accountable to explain how Grace works in its theology.

Rob


Open Theism and Arminianism affirms that grace is the grounds (reason by which) we are saved. This should not be confused with the conditions (not without which) of salvation: repentant faith and continuance in the faith.

The perfect provision of God (objective) must be subjectively appropriated by man. He commands all men everywhere (hence no limited atonement or irresistible grace) to repent and believe= synergism vs monergism. He initiates and provides, but man has a responsibility to receive or reject (Jn. 1:12; 3:16, 36). A condition is not a work or self-salvation. It is a parameter set by God lest we are reduced to a deterministic universe void of love, freedom, and relationship.

Reconciliation and relationship are at the heart of salvation vs metaphysics. This involves two parties. Love relationships cannot be coerced. God influences, woos, draws, persuades. Man responds to or rejects His grace and truth. We have this capacity.

Semi-Pelagianism is closer to the truth (Finney).
 

RobE

New member
themuzicman said:
OV places man's free will as the only active agent? Where did you get that from?

Muz

Clete.

Premise 1a: Free will is defined as having the ability to do or do otherwise purely by an act of that will.

If there was another active agent then the will wouldn't be free, would it?

Rob
 
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