ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1
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elected4ever
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I take exception to that. Why do you who clame to know god demean him so? I think you and your elk cannot conceive of god outside your human logic. You seem to be doing your best to bring God down to your terms. It really saddens my heart to see you do this.Bob Hill said:
Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
Rob Mauldin
Clete and you are having an interesting exchange of ideas.
I am also an Open View theist. So I want to respond to you even though Clete has done an excellent job.
Christ was especially in communication with the Father at this time. I’m sure you would agree that our Father in heaven is so smart that He can tell when someone has gone so far in a stance that there is no turning back. It certainly seems this was the case with Judas.
Bob Hill
Clete and you are having an interesting exchange of ideas.
I am also an Open View theist. So I want to respond to you even though Clete has done an excellent job.
Christ was especially in communication with the Father at this time. I’m sure you would agree that our Father in heaven is so smart that He can tell when someone has gone so far in a stance that there is no turning back. It certainly seems this was the case with Judas.
Bob Hill
elected4ever said:I take exception to that. Why do you who clame to know god demean him so? I think you and your elk cannot conceive of god outside your human logic. You seem to be doing your best to bring God down to your terms. It really saddens my heart to see you do this.
Open Theists have a since desire to understand God's self-revelation. We also take exception to traditions that are overly influenced by Platonic philosophy.
Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
Rob Mauldin,
Some prophesies of God were not fulfilled and never can be fulfilled.
Ezek 26-30 And it came to pass in the eleventh year, on the first day of the month, that the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 2 Son of man, because Tyre has said against Jerusalem, Aha! She is broken who was the gateway of the peoples; now she is turned over to me; I shall be filled; she is laid waste. 3 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I am against you, O Tyre, and will cause many nations to come up against you, as the sea causes its waves to come up. 4 And they shall destroy the walls of Tyre and break down her towers; I will also scrape her dust from her, and make her like the top of a rock. 5 It shall be a place for spreading nets in the midst of the sea, for I have spoken, says the Lord GOD; it shall become plunder for the nations. 6 Also her daughter villages which are in the fields shall be slain by the sword. Then they shall know that I am the LORD. 7 For thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I will bring against Tyre from the north Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses, with chariots, and with horsemen, and an army with many people. 8 He will slay with the sword your daughter villages in the fields; he will heap up a siege mound against you, build a wall against you, and raise a defense against you. 9 He will direct his battering rams against your walls, and with his axes he will break down your towers. 10 Because of the abundance of his horses, their dust will cover you; your walls will shake at the noise of the horsemen, the wagons, and the chariots, when he enters your gates, as men enter a city that has been breached. 11 With the hooves of his horses he will trample all your streets; he will slay your people by the sword, and your strong pillars will fall to the ground. 12 They will plunder your riches and pillage your merchandise; they will break down your walls and destroy your pleasant houses; they will lay your stones, your timber, and your soil in the midst of the water. 13 I will put an end to the sound of your songs, and the sound of your harps shall be heard no more. 14 I will make you like the top of a rock; you shall be a place for spreading nets, and you shall never be rebuilt, for I the LORD have spoken, says the Lord GOD. 15 Thus says the Lord GOD to Tyre: Will the coastlands not shake at the sound of your fall, when the wounded cry, when slaughter is made in the midst of you? 16 Then all the princes of the sea will come down from their thrones, lay aside their robes, and take off their embroidered garments; they will clothe themselves with trembling; they will sit on the ground, tremble every moment, and be astonished at you. 17 And they will take up a lamentation for you, and say to you: How you have perished, O one inhabited by seafaring men, O renowned city, Who was strong at sea, She and her inhabitants, Who caused their terror to be on all her inhabitants! 18 Now the coastlands tremble on the day of your fall; Yes, the coastlands by the sea are troubled at your departure. 19 For thus says the Lord GOD: When I make you a desolate city, like cities that are not inhabited, when I bring the deep upon you, and great waters cover you, 20 then I will bring you down with those who descend into the Pit, to the people of old, and I will make you dwell in the lowest part of the earth, in places desolate from antiquity, with those who go down to the Pit, so that you may never be inhabited; and I shall establish glory in the land of the living. 21 I will make you a terror, and you shall be no more; though you are sought for, you will never be found again, says the Lord GOD.
27:1 The word of the LORD came again to me, saying, 2 Now, son of man, take up a lamentation for Tyre, 3 and say to Tyre, You who are situated at the entrance of the sea, merchant of the peoples on many coastlands, thus says the Lord GOD: O Tyre, you have said, I am perfect in beauty. 4 Your borders are in the midst of the seas. Your builders have perfected your beauty. . . 27 Your riches, wares, and merchandise, Your mariners and pilots, Your caulkers and merchandisers, All your men of war who are in you, And the entire company which is in your midst, will fall into the midst of the seas on the day of your ruin. 28 The common-land will shake at the sound of the cry of your pilots. 29 All who handle the oar, The mariners, All the pilots of the sea will come down from their ships and stand on the shore. . . 32 In their wailing for you They will take up a lamentation, And lament for you: What city is like Tyre, Destroyed in the midst of the sea?. . . 34 But you are broken by the seas in the depths of the waters; Your merchandise and the entire company will fall in your midst . . . .29:1 In the tenth year, in the tenth month, on the twelfth day of the month, the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 2 Son of man, set your face against Pharaoh king of Egypt, and prophesy against him, and against all Egypt. 3 Speak, and say, Thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I am against you, O Pharaoh king of Egypt, O great monster who lies in the midst of his rivers, Who has said, My River is my own; I have made it for myself. 4 But I will put hooks in your jaws, And cause the fish of your rivers to stick to your scales; I will bring you up out of the midst of your rivers, And all the fish in your rivers will stick to your scales. 5 I will leave you in the wilderness, You and all the fish of your rivers; You shall fall on the open field; You shall not be picked up or gathered. I have given you as food To the beasts of the field And to the birds of the heavens. 6 Then all the inhabitants of Egypt Shall know that I am the LORD, Because they have been a staff of reed to the house of Israel. 7 When they took hold of you with the hand, You broke and tore all their shoulders; When they leaned on you, You broke and made all their backs quiver. 8 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Surely I will bring a sword upon you and cut off from you man and beast. 9 And the land of Egypt shall become desolate and waste; then they will know that I am the LORD, because he said, The River is mine, and I have made it. 10 Indeed, therefore, I am against you and against your rivers, and I will make the land of Egypt utterly waste and desolate, from Migdol to Syene, as far as the border of Ethiopia. 11 Neither foot of man shall pass through it nor foot of beast pass through it, and it shall be uninhabited forty years. 12 I will make the land of Egypt desolate in the midst of the countries that are desolate; and among the cities that are laid waste, her cities shall be desolate forty years; and I will scatter the Egyptians among the nations and disperse them throughout the countries. 13 Yet, thus says the Lord GOD: At the end of forty years I will gather the Egyptians from the peoples among whom they were scattered. 14 I will bring back the captives of Egypt and cause them to return to the land of Pathros, to the land of their origin, and there they shall be a lowly kingdom. 15 It shall be the lowliest of kingdoms; it shall never again exalt itself above the nations, for I will diminish them so that they will not rule over the nations anymore. 16 No longer shall it be the confidence of the house of Israel, but will remind them of their iniquity when they turned to follow them. Then they shall know that I am the Lord GOD. 17 And it came to pass in the twenty-seventh year, in the first month, on the first day of the month, that the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 18 Son of man, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon caused his army to labor strenuously against Tyre; every head was made bald, and every shoulder rubbed raw; yet neither he nor his army received wages from Tyre, for the labor which they expended on it. 19 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Surely I will give the land of Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon; he shall take away her wealth, carry off her spoil, and remove her pillage; and that will be the wages for his army. 20 I have given him the land of Egypt for his labor, because they worked for Me, says the Lord GOD. 21 In that day I will cause the horn of the house of Israel to spring forth, and I will open your mouth to speak in their midst. Then they shall know that I am the LORD.
What God predicted did not happen. And, I might add, Tyre still exists today.
If God had foreknown and predestined this event, It would have happened the way He said it would. But God did not foreknow it, and it did not happen the way He predicted it. Does that mean God is incompetent? No way. All it shows is humans are somewhat unpredictable. If God had foreknown the destruction of Tyre, He would have made it happen.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
Some prophesies of God were not fulfilled and never can be fulfilled.
Ezek 26-30 And it came to pass in the eleventh year, on the first day of the month, that the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 2 Son of man, because Tyre has said against Jerusalem, Aha! She is broken who was the gateway of the peoples; now she is turned over to me; I shall be filled; she is laid waste. 3 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I am against you, O Tyre, and will cause many nations to come up against you, as the sea causes its waves to come up. 4 And they shall destroy the walls of Tyre and break down her towers; I will also scrape her dust from her, and make her like the top of a rock. 5 It shall be a place for spreading nets in the midst of the sea, for I have spoken, says the Lord GOD; it shall become plunder for the nations. 6 Also her daughter villages which are in the fields shall be slain by the sword. Then they shall know that I am the LORD. 7 For thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I will bring against Tyre from the north Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses, with chariots, and with horsemen, and an army with many people. 8 He will slay with the sword your daughter villages in the fields; he will heap up a siege mound against you, build a wall against you, and raise a defense against you. 9 He will direct his battering rams against your walls, and with his axes he will break down your towers. 10 Because of the abundance of his horses, their dust will cover you; your walls will shake at the noise of the horsemen, the wagons, and the chariots, when he enters your gates, as men enter a city that has been breached. 11 With the hooves of his horses he will trample all your streets; he will slay your people by the sword, and your strong pillars will fall to the ground. 12 They will plunder your riches and pillage your merchandise; they will break down your walls and destroy your pleasant houses; they will lay your stones, your timber, and your soil in the midst of the water. 13 I will put an end to the sound of your songs, and the sound of your harps shall be heard no more. 14 I will make you like the top of a rock; you shall be a place for spreading nets, and you shall never be rebuilt, for I the LORD have spoken, says the Lord GOD. 15 Thus says the Lord GOD to Tyre: Will the coastlands not shake at the sound of your fall, when the wounded cry, when slaughter is made in the midst of you? 16 Then all the princes of the sea will come down from their thrones, lay aside their robes, and take off their embroidered garments; they will clothe themselves with trembling; they will sit on the ground, tremble every moment, and be astonished at you. 17 And they will take up a lamentation for you, and say to you: How you have perished, O one inhabited by seafaring men, O renowned city, Who was strong at sea, She and her inhabitants, Who caused their terror to be on all her inhabitants! 18 Now the coastlands tremble on the day of your fall; Yes, the coastlands by the sea are troubled at your departure. 19 For thus says the Lord GOD: When I make you a desolate city, like cities that are not inhabited, when I bring the deep upon you, and great waters cover you, 20 then I will bring you down with those who descend into the Pit, to the people of old, and I will make you dwell in the lowest part of the earth, in places desolate from antiquity, with those who go down to the Pit, so that you may never be inhabited; and I shall establish glory in the land of the living. 21 I will make you a terror, and you shall be no more; though you are sought for, you will never be found again, says the Lord GOD.
27:1 The word of the LORD came again to me, saying, 2 Now, son of man, take up a lamentation for Tyre, 3 and say to Tyre, You who are situated at the entrance of the sea, merchant of the peoples on many coastlands, thus says the Lord GOD: O Tyre, you have said, I am perfect in beauty. 4 Your borders are in the midst of the seas. Your builders have perfected your beauty. . . 27 Your riches, wares, and merchandise, Your mariners and pilots, Your caulkers and merchandisers, All your men of war who are in you, And the entire company which is in your midst, will fall into the midst of the seas on the day of your ruin. 28 The common-land will shake at the sound of the cry of your pilots. 29 All who handle the oar, The mariners, All the pilots of the sea will come down from their ships and stand on the shore. . . 32 In their wailing for you They will take up a lamentation, And lament for you: What city is like Tyre, Destroyed in the midst of the sea?. . . 34 But you are broken by the seas in the depths of the waters; Your merchandise and the entire company will fall in your midst . . . .29:1 In the tenth year, in the tenth month, on the twelfth day of the month, the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 2 Son of man, set your face against Pharaoh king of Egypt, and prophesy against him, and against all Egypt. 3 Speak, and say, Thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I am against you, O Pharaoh king of Egypt, O great monster who lies in the midst of his rivers, Who has said, My River is my own; I have made it for myself. 4 But I will put hooks in your jaws, And cause the fish of your rivers to stick to your scales; I will bring you up out of the midst of your rivers, And all the fish in your rivers will stick to your scales. 5 I will leave you in the wilderness, You and all the fish of your rivers; You shall fall on the open field; You shall not be picked up or gathered. I have given you as food To the beasts of the field And to the birds of the heavens. 6 Then all the inhabitants of Egypt Shall know that I am the LORD, Because they have been a staff of reed to the house of Israel. 7 When they took hold of you with the hand, You broke and tore all their shoulders; When they leaned on you, You broke and made all their backs quiver. 8 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Surely I will bring a sword upon you and cut off from you man and beast. 9 And the land of Egypt shall become desolate and waste; then they will know that I am the LORD, because he said, The River is mine, and I have made it. 10 Indeed, therefore, I am against you and against your rivers, and I will make the land of Egypt utterly waste and desolate, from Migdol to Syene, as far as the border of Ethiopia. 11 Neither foot of man shall pass through it nor foot of beast pass through it, and it shall be uninhabited forty years. 12 I will make the land of Egypt desolate in the midst of the countries that are desolate; and among the cities that are laid waste, her cities shall be desolate forty years; and I will scatter the Egyptians among the nations and disperse them throughout the countries. 13 Yet, thus says the Lord GOD: At the end of forty years I will gather the Egyptians from the peoples among whom they were scattered. 14 I will bring back the captives of Egypt and cause them to return to the land of Pathros, to the land of their origin, and there they shall be a lowly kingdom. 15 It shall be the lowliest of kingdoms; it shall never again exalt itself above the nations, for I will diminish them so that they will not rule over the nations anymore. 16 No longer shall it be the confidence of the house of Israel, but will remind them of their iniquity when they turned to follow them. Then they shall know that I am the Lord GOD. 17 And it came to pass in the twenty-seventh year, in the first month, on the first day of the month, that the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 18 Son of man, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon caused his army to labor strenuously against Tyre; every head was made bald, and every shoulder rubbed raw; yet neither he nor his army received wages from Tyre, for the labor which they expended on it. 19 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Surely I will give the land of Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon; he shall take away her wealth, carry off her spoil, and remove her pillage; and that will be the wages for his army. 20 I have given him the land of Egypt for his labor, because they worked for Me, says the Lord GOD. 21 In that day I will cause the horn of the house of Israel to spring forth, and I will open your mouth to speak in their midst. Then they shall know that I am the LORD.
What God predicted did not happen. And, I might add, Tyre still exists today.
If God had foreknown and predestined this event, It would have happened the way He said it would. But God did not foreknow it, and it did not happen the way He predicted it. Does that mean God is incompetent? No way. All it shows is humans are somewhat unpredictable. If God had foreknown the destruction of Tyre, He would have made it happen.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
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Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
Rob Mauldin,
1 Timothy 2:4 says God "desires [wills] all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." Yet all men are not saved. Even Christians reject the will of God. Everyone of us have.
1 Th 4:3-7 For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; 4 that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, 5 not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God; 6 that no one should take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified. 7 For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness.
God may will things, but when we read scripture, we see that it is only the things that He predestines or has enough knowledge of the event to know it will happen, that He is 100% right.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
1 Timothy 2:4 says God "desires [wills] all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." Yet all men are not saved. Even Christians reject the will of God. Everyone of us have.
1 Th 4:3-7 For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; 4 that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, 5 not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God; 6 that no one should take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified. 7 For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness.
God may will things, but when we read scripture, we see that it is only the things that He predestines or has enough knowledge of the event to know it will happen, that He is 100% right.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
Agape4Robin
Member
Do you honestly think that our rejection of God's will in any way thwarts His plans?:think:Bob Hill said:
Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
Elected forever,
This might be ticki tacky, but ilk is spelled ilk, not elk. Other than that, thank you for such a pleasent post. I'm sure glad God loves us all, and I'm especially glad that those of us who are saved, and I think you are, want to love the Lord and, believe it or not, He wants us to love one another.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
I see a real problem that Calvinists have. God's word says
Lk 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.
Untold millions have rejected His counsel for them since that time. Though man does reject Gods counsel for himself and does resist His will, no one can resist His counsel as it pertains to His purpose.
Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?
The implied answer is, NO ONE!!!
Bob Hill
John 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.
Lk 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.
Untold millions have rejected His counsel for them since that time. Though man does reject Gods counsel for himself and does resist His will, no one can resist His counsel as it pertains to His purpose.
Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?
The implied answer is, NO ONE!!!
Bob Hill
John 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.
Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
Here are three nice passages.
2 Pe 1:10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble.
I’ve already listed 1 Ti 2:4, but it is so good on this subject that it bears repeating, since it says “God desires [wills] all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
But they are not all saved.
Did you know that 2 Pet 3:9 says, The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
If He is not willing, why doesn’t the Calvinist’s God make them all believe?
In Christ,
Bob Hill
2 Pe 1:10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble.
I’ve already listed 1 Ti 2:4, but it is so good on this subject that it bears repeating, since it says “God desires [wills] all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
But they are not all saved.
Did you know that 2 Pet 3:9 says, The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
If He is not willing, why doesn’t the Calvinist’s God make them all believe?
In Christ,
Bob Hill
elected4ever
New member
Why are you so treatened by God"s foreknowledge?Bob Hill said:
Bob Hill said:
Individuals can and do reject God's will for their lives. This does not thwart God's overall purposes to call a people to Himself. His purposes are fulfilled by those who believe and submit to Him. Unbelievers do not undermine His final triumph over evil, but they do miss God's intended salvation at great consequence and heartbreak to God. Giving us significant freedom and desiring reciprocal relationships introduced elements of risk and potential for grief to the heart of God. This is the price of love and freedom. It does not undermine God's sovereignty since He still rules the universe and sovereignly chose this type of creation over a deterministic one.
Good insights, Bob.
elected4ever said:
Desiring to understand the nature of the future and God's omniscience is not a threat. Why are you so threatened to have your Platonic philosophical ideas called into question. Given the nature of the debate, I would be slow to be dogmatic or accept a tradition uncritically.
God knows and predestines some of the future. This does not mean He knows and predestines every detail of the future exhaustively or coercively.
Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
God’s truth should not threaten anyone unless he has not trusted Christ as his savior. When I read alleged Calvinistic passages, I always go to the underlying Greek or Hebrew text to see if it is a biased translation or not. I must quickly say that we all are biased to some extent. We should be on guard all the time to keep ourselves from our bias at all costs. But, it is difficult.
With that in mind, this is what I believe Rom 8:28 is telling us. I believe Romans 8:28 should be literally translated this way: “And we know that He [God] works with those loving God, with those called according to [His] purpose all things for good.”
After the literal translation, I would translate it more smoothly, like this: Rom 8:28-30, “And we know that God works with those who love God, with those who are the called according to His purpose all things for good. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
I believe this is not predestination of individuals. It is predestination of the corporate body of Christ which God fitted for glory. As we believe and become part of His body, we then are part of the body that will become glorified.
God not only worked with Israel but works with us too. I believe He did not foreknow individuals. He foreknew and elected Christ, Israel, and the body of Christ.
When we trust in Christ, the Holy Spirit identifies us with Christ. After we are identified with Christ by our salvation, we become part of His predestined purpose. To rephrase it, once we are saved we are predestined, as His body, to be conformed to Christ’s image. Notice, it does not say we are predestined to be saved. It says we are “predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son”. This verse is excellent to show our security. Our security is predestined. Our salvation is not.
Bob Hill
With that in mind, this is what I believe Rom 8:28 is telling us. I believe Romans 8:28 should be literally translated this way: “And we know that He [God] works with those loving God, with those called according to [His] purpose all things for good.”
After the literal translation, I would translate it more smoothly, like this: Rom 8:28-30, “And we know that God works with those who love God, with those who are the called according to His purpose all things for good. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
I believe this is not predestination of individuals. It is predestination of the corporate body of Christ which God fitted for glory. As we believe and become part of His body, we then are part of the body that will become glorified.
God not only worked with Israel but works with us too. I believe He did not foreknow individuals. He foreknew and elected Christ, Israel, and the body of Christ.
When we trust in Christ, the Holy Spirit identifies us with Christ. After we are identified with Christ by our salvation, we become part of His predestined purpose. To rephrase it, once we are saved we are predestined, as His body, to be conformed to Christ’s image. Notice, it does not say we are predestined to be saved. It says we are “predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son”. This verse is excellent to show our security. Our security is predestined. Our salvation is not.
Bob Hill
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Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
The phrase “works with” is translated from GraecaII font sunergei`. This word is found 5 times in the NT. It is always translated works with except in Rom 8:28.
Mark 16:20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with tou` kurivou sunergou`nto" them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen.
1 Co 16:16 submit to such, and to everyone who works sunergou`nti and labors with us.
2 Co 5:22-6:1 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. 1 We then, as workers together sunergou`nte" with Him also plead with you not to receive the grace of God in vain.
James 2:22 Do you see that faith was working together with sunhvrgei his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
Mark 16:20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with tou` kurivou sunergou`nto" them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen.
1 Co 16:16 submit to such, and to everyone who works sunergou`nti and labors with us.
2 Co 5:22-6:1 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. 1 We then, as workers together sunergou`nte" with Him also plead with you not to receive the grace of God in vain.
James 2:22 Do you see that faith was working together with sunhvrgei his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
Bob Hill said:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/im...06218-2632839?_encoding=UTF8&n=507846&s=books
This and other non-Calvinistic books develop corporate vs individual election (Rom. 9-11). I believe your insight clears up misconceptions relating to TULIP (elected may not be a Reformed Calvinist, but he has adopted many of their ideas).
Some translations do have a Calvinistic bias. This is why we have to exegete controversial texts with original languages, or at least more than one translation.
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