The game "Snake" in the TOL Arcade (click here).Bob Hill said:God-Is-Truth'
In what way are you a snake champion?
Bob
Mr. 5020 said:His name is godrulz.
Why did you ask the same question twice?RobE said:Allright Lighthouse let me shed some light on the situation.
1) If Jesus died knowing that some wouldn't be saved then why not do something so ALL would be saved. Could He have done this? Or did He expect all would be saved after He was crucified?
2) If God knows the future and some wouldn't be saved then why not do something so ALL would be saved. Could He have done this?
It's the same question with the same answer.
Absolutely nowhere.Where would that have gotten us?
And? That has no bearing. Because God did not know, He created Adam and Eve, and wanted a relationship with them, at the risk that they may fall. But He had such love in His heart, He felt the risk was worth it.If God foresaw man would fall and not created us; then there would have been no hope for the ones of us who are redeemed.
How does it defeat Open Theism? Free will is part of the package of the image of God. And God was not surprised. He knew it was possible. And you can't even explain how God not knowing the future makes His reasons invalid. Unless you think His reasons are not the reasons I believe He had.This defeats Open Theism and you can't even see it. Free will isn't what makes us in God's image. Correct choices do. Animals have free will, but no culpability because they don't know what good and evil are. With a creation where good and evil are real choices then men eventually will choose evil; even though, they were created good. Whether God foresaw men sinning or it suprised Him; He created them for the same reasons and allowed them liberty to act for the same reasons. Open Theisms attempt to say those reasons are invalid with foresight would, by their own reasoning, make those reasons invalid if God can't see the future.
His love isn't the point.Just as e4e said: Because He loved them all, not just those that would be saved. There is no greater love than a (Son of)Man who lays down His own life for His enemies. Sound familiar?
John Calvin is not the one who came up with the idea of eternal security. God is, and it's in the Bible. Paul mentioned it constantly.Just that it makes you a 1 point Calvinist. Calvinists did come foreward with that theology.
Yes. Because He gave us free will.God is the God of miracles. Don't you think? I never said He's not capable of making you into a NEW creation, just that you're not capable of changing Him. And you misconstrue my belief-----Some whom God wants to save will not get saved according to both our beliefs. Does that sound like the God of the Bible to you?
Actually, no. they wouldn't.What you have to ask yourself is what was God's purpose for the creation? With or without foresight those reasons would be the same, right?
You do realize that if He had not created us, then we would not exist, nor even be thought of and therefore it would not matter to us, or anyone, not even God, that we could not be saved. None of it would exist, or even be thought of. And if He hadn't created the tree, and had not told them there were things they could not do then we would all still live in the Garden of Eden and none of it would matter then, either. Some, probably most, of us would not even exist.So in answer to your question to e4e I'll answer----- Because He loved you even though He foreknew that Judas would betray Him. Thank God He didn't stop creation for Judas' sake and therefore stop yours. In your opinion was it worth it to you----it was to Him?. Love.
Yours,
Rob
Bob Hill said:Wrong, only one gospel and there has never been more that one gospel
elected4ever said:Wrong, only one gospel and there has never been more that one gospel
Lighthouse said:I suppose you mean, why didn't God just do something that all men would be saved no matter what, right? Well, God, not wanting to force people, allowed us a choice. Because He loves us, and wants us to love Him in return. And you can't have genuine love from someone who does not choose to love you, even if you were God.
Lighthouse said:And, no, Christ did not expect all to be saved after the crucifixion. He knew not everyone would be saved, but that there were those who would. And He was willing to risk the propitiation of His sacrafice for the sake of those who would turn to Him, knowing that not all would. He loved us so much He was willing to risk it.
Lighthouse said:And? That has no bearing. Because God did not know, He created Adam and Eve, and wanted a relationship with them, at the risk that they may fall. But He had such love in His heart, He felt the risk was worth it.
Lighthouse said:How does it defeat Open Theism? Free will is part of the package of the image of God. And God was not surprised. He knew it was possible. And you can't even explain how God not knowing the future makes His reasons invalid. Unless you think His reasons are not the reasons I believe He had.
Lighthouse said:Do you really think it would make sense for Christ to say, "I know you will die without me, and go to hell, but I love you anyway, so I'm going to die so that you may live with me for eternity, even though you won't." Do you really believe that makes sense? to anyone? Do you actually believe that makes sense to God?
Lighthouse said:John Calvin is not the one who came up with the idea of eternal security. God is, and it's in the Bible. Paul mentioned it constantly.
Lighthouse said:But you can't answer why Christ died for someone who is unable to come to salvation.
Lighthouse said:You do realize that if He had not created us, then we would not exist, nor even be thought of and therefore it would not matter to us, or anyone, not even God, that we could not be saved. None of it would exist, or even be thought of. And if He hadn't created the tree, and had not told them there were things they could not do then we would all still live in the Garden of Eden and none of it would matter then, either. Some, probably most, of us would not even exist.
Saying it doesn't make it so RobE.RobE said:No matter how it's phrased your statement is true whether God foresaw the future or not. You just can't get it through your head that free will can exist when the creator foresees the outcome.
I believe that. Now explain something to me. How does God knowing what your choice is prevent you from making that choice? Making a choice is by definition an act concerning a future event. God does not make your choice concerning that future event but what does He do? He presents you with knowledge that you may make a more informed choice. God does not make the choice for you.Furnishing you knowledge does not constitute making your decision. The fact is that God knows the future event and you do not. You do not know the future and must make an informed or uninformed choice concerning the event.do you or do you not acknowledge that without the ability to do or to do otherwise there is no free will?
elected4ever said:Clete I believe that. Now explain something to me. How does God knowing what your choice is prevent you from making that choice? Making a choice is by definition an act concerning a future event. God does not make your choice concerning that future event but what does He do? He presents you with knowledge that you may make a more informed choice. God does not make the choice for you.Furnishing you knowledge does not constitute making your decision. The fact is that God knows the future event and you do not. You do not know the future and must make an informed or uninformed choice concerning the event.
docrob57 said:The fact of the matter is that foreknowledge does not prevent free choice. This has been demonstrated to the OV folks over and over with no recognition of the validity of the argument from them.
I understand that you must believe that foreknowledge does preclude choice to adhere to the open view. Rather than accept this the OV proponents simply choose to ignore logic and forge ahead.
God_Is_Truth said:If all you mean by "choice" is the ability to choose something then you are right. But if by "choice" you mean real choices, the ability to choose one thing or another (like in the real world where you can choose a whole host of things) then you are wrong. If we have the ability to choose among two or more things, then foreknowledge cannot include the outcome of that choice, by definition.
RobE said:Originally Posted by RobE
No matter how it's phrased your statement is true whether God foresaw the future or not. You just can't get it through your head that free will can exist when the creator foresees the outcome.
Clete said:Saying it doesn't make it so RobE.
Clete said:To be free means having the ability to do or to do otherwise. In other words, there must be a genuine choice to be made for an action to be considered free.
Clete said:Now I don't usually ask the sort of question I'm fixing to ask because I don't think that definitions are a matter of opinion.
Clete said:Words have meaning and this is what it would mean to have free will whether any of us agreed with it or not. But since I've made this exact point with you a dozen times with little or no response, I don't want to go any further until you acknoweldge this single point. So, do you or do you not acknowledge that without the ability to do or to do otherwise there is no free will?
It's true by definition doc! This is like telling me to prove that circles are round. You don't have to prove such things because circle are round by definition a free action could have been obstained from.docrob57 said:Can you offer any proof of your assertion? I have presented formal proofs in previous threads demonstrating your position to be false. In return, I was presented with statements such as yours which basically states "what I say is true because I say so."
If you are right, if what you say is true by definition, then proof of your statement should be relatively simple. So please proceed.
This has not been demonstrated doc. Or if it has I missed it. Perhaps you could give us all a link to the post where this has been established. Will you be man enough to either do so or admit that you cannot?The fact of the matter is that foreknowledge does not prevent free choice. This has been demonstrated to the OV folks over and over with no recognition of the validity of the argument from them.
I make a thousand choices a day RodE. I don't understand what you're getting at here.RobE said:Exactly. What is your only real choice? What's the one choice that the laws of physics can't govern? When you stand before the judgement seat does God want to know if you prefer ketchup to mustard? What one decision can you NOT blame on someone/something else? What one decision that you can make which will have eternal consequences?(con=with, sequences=order)
You do not understand Open Theism. Open Theism does not teach that we can do anything we wish. I cannot defeat Michael Jordon in a game of one on one basketball, no matter how badly I want to do so. I cannot go today and buy a genuine Rolex watch, even though I would really like to do so. There's tons of things I would like to do that I cannot for any number of reasons. The only thing required for Open Theism is that the future is not exhaustively settled, not my ability to do willy-nilly anything that I can imagine doing.I acknowledge that without the ability to do or to do otherwise there is no free will. I disagree with the fact that we are capable to do anything we wish(Open Theism), that a dog on a chain is also bound and gagged(Calvinism), but a dog on a chain may still choose to drink, eat, or sleep(Traditional Christianity) as he wishes.
There are many. Will I honor my wife today or won't I. Will I share the gospel with some person at work or won't I. Which words will I choose to speak to my neighbor today? All of the things I do that honor God will have a potentially eternal consequence.What choices can you make which will last past the Day of Judgement?
Every moral action has a potentially eternal consequence either for the good or for the bad. I really don't understand your point here. Please clarify.When the Heavens and Earth are gone then what will be left? What choice can you make in your freedom, Clete? Was Lucifer's choice any different before his judgement?