ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[Clete]

You told my husband you hated him. No Christian talks that way to another Christian.

Calling yourself a Christian doesn't make you one. I have no idea who either you or your husband are but I suspect that if I hate your husband there is good reason to do so. (i.e. he blasphemes or lies or both). It's not as if I go around looking for people to hate.

But, at least we know now why all the emotionalism from someone who's not been around enough to know me from Adam.

Jesus Christ never resorted to calling others "idiots." You should not do so, either.

You don't know what Jesus resorted too! Do you think that every word that Jesus ever spoke is written in the gospels? He certainly did call people fools and hypocrites and He repeatedly talks about people He hates throughout the Old Testament. I have a feeling that they all wanted to kill Him so badly because He was so friendly and nice to all those around Him who thought and acted like they were religious and pious and who were actually full of blasphemy and dead men's bones. Yeah, I'm sure that's it. He was so sugary sweet to everyone around Him that they just couldn't take it any more and decided to kill Him.

Whatever!

I have only been on this forum for a couple of hours. How could I theologically engage you yet, even if I wanted.

You could ask a question. You could look on my profile page and find all my recent posts and try to figure out where I'm at and where I'm coming from. You could read more than one single post before jumping to a completely unsupported conclusion that is derived more from an emotional need to defend your husband than anything else. There are lots of things you could have done to engage me. You have to start somewhere.

But I do not want. OVT'ers do not listen to reason. They function by throwing their weight and calling other people "idiots." I do not care to engage hateful persons who use epithets to (supposedly) win arguments.

Then you won't have any trouble engaging me, unless you first do something ridiculous like call something you haven't even bothered to read convoluted and think that on the basis of your having said so, the argument is thereby refuted. If you pull something like that, after I take the time to respectfully engage you in an intellectually honest manner then you can expect to incur hostility from me. Otherwise, if you respond with something that resembles sound reason then I will not only be kind, I will be totally excited and delighted that I have found someone who is worth the time and effort it takes to think through and write these posts.

Bah . . .

Very convincing!

And I am not so stupid that I would waste my time letting you tell me I am an idiot, in lieu of decent hermeneutics.

If you presented decent hermeneutics then I wouldn't call you an idiot. I only call idiots, idiots.

Just letting you know that you have gained a reputation online, and others here, suffering your verbal attacks should know, that others have learned, you are nothing but an egotistical, foul-mouthed, paper tiger, teaching a false gospel.

Saying it doesn't make is so Nang.

I pummeled your husband on the other web site (I can't remember which one at the moment - but it will come to me) and now you accidentally found me over here and assumed that because your husband got told the painful truth and that this single moron on this thread has likewise been called a moron by me that surely I must just go around everywhere calling everyone I see a moron.

Your an emotionally driven woman who needs to learn to think before she speaks.


Resting in Him,
Clete

P.S. I just realized who this Nang person is. She and her husband, who goes by the screen name "Reader" on another theology forum, were the only two people who made my ignore list over there when I went on a Calvinist hunting safari in July of '06.

The mistake that Nang here makes, which seems to be becoming more and more common these days, is that she forgets that the whole thread is still over there for everyone to read!
Since the rules here at TOL prohibit me from posting links to that site (I didn't know at the time about the history that exists between TOL and the creators of that website) I encourage anyone who might be interested to do a Google search for 'Immutability: Does anyone still believe it? Clete'. Once you find the thread you can just read my posts and get the gist of it. You'll have to read all the way to post 58 before I use the word 'stupid' though.

 

[Philetus]

Philetus, you sound like Clete and Enyart trying to argue about physics and time and everything else to try to justify your point of view.

You said specifically that these words have no meaning when they are describing a God above our reason. It is sure mentioned enough time in Scripture that God is good and righteous. Do you think the authors were just inventing the terms or applying what they know in human terms to be righteous and good to God.

You sound like the Muslims; God transcending all reason and therefore you can do anything in the name of God.

It's a bunch of double talk and empty latitudes like Hitler used to belch. That way you can read into it whatever you want.

You can't think your way out of your own paper bag. Muslims? Hitler? You are really scum-bagging it. Does it make you feel 'good' to categorize others by such evil terms? You are doing the very thing you just condemned Clete for doing. But, thanks for illustrating my point in such an ugly way.

God doesn’t transcend all reason, only faulty reason, reason based on the knowledge of good and evil for instance. God's ways are indeed higher than our ways, his thoughts higher than our thoughts. Did you ever stop to think the reason that is so is because evil has been given such a prominent role in our ways and thinking? God is truth. God just won't stoop to your categories of good AND evil and be defined by such. God is too righteous for that. No one will never have the mind of Christ, by categorizing everybody and everything as either good or evil, no matter how 'high' they might get from doing so. God's solution for our evil ways isn't a 'higher' or more in depth knowledge of good and evil. It is knowledge of Himself (revelation through the presence of His Holy Spirit); that alone is to define our lives in Christ Jesus. Knowledge of God's righteousness alone is to inform our action and define our relationships to/with one another. Not our assessment of how good or how evil we judge ourselves or others to be.

God is good, righteous, all the time. And I'm not reading anything into God's Goodness; anything at all. I'm not the one who is trying to characterize God with terms of good AND evil. That's your bag, friend. And that is the weakness in your argument. God isn’t defined by creation, either before or after the fall. God is God and as such defines creation and creature. We are the ones who have to deal with our own perversions of truth that have been tainted with our own evil. We can persist and be given over to reprobate minds or we can repent and embrace the truth about God as revealed in Christ. We can continue to define the debate with vain philosophies or we can accept the revelation of God in Christ Jesus.

The question Jesus asks, “Why do you call me good?” does not deny his goodness, it simply asks WHY; why do we refer to God as Good?. Is it because (as your position holds) we have figured out good AND evil and how it pertains to what God does or doesn’t do? Or is it (as I'm arguing) because we know we are so twisted in our thinking that we can only believe and trust in God’s goodness, righteousness and faithfulness to God’s own character and nature as revealed in the cross. The cross is God's righteous response to our dilemma of good and evil. We can either circumvent it to our own destruction or embrace it and live the life it offers. We can either go to the cross ourselves or continue to send others. In Christ God goes to the cross for others.

The future remains open precisely because God is loving, long-suffering, faithful and good and doesn’t deal with us on terms of good and evil as we deserve or even seem to desire as your argument indicates. God deals with us on God's terms.

If that sounds like I'm advocating a 'do anything you like' life style, then it is the bag over your own head that needs popping.

Romans 1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
1:25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.
1:28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.
1:32 Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

Romans 2:1 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.

Our judgment is contaminated by our own limited knowledge of good AND evil and in the above God condemns such judgment as clearly as He condemns wicked deeds. God's is pure goodness. In God there is no darkness, no play of passing shadows. That is why, even though we can never be justified by it, the Law and judgments of God remain good for us. The beauty of it is that in Christ the law neither justifies, acquits nor condemns us. It merely schools us. And it certainly isn't something that we can use to judge and condemn others by.

 

[Clete]

Clete, that's why we have different terms for different concepts and why I said Enyart needs to define his terms. do-do bird! You really looked stupid when you said "there's no such thing as human reason." Why are we made in God's image? Because we have a reasoning soul.

I didn't say humans can't reason, I said that there is no such thing as "human reason".

It's like when God says that He makes foolish the wisdom of the wise. He wasn't talking about real wisdom but what foolish men who think they are wise call wisdom, what they THINK is wisdom. It's not really wisdom at all, its just foolishness and God shows it for what it really is.

Likewise, "human reason" isn't really reason at all. It's incoherent nonsense but it tickles the ears of fools and so they call it reasoning when in reality it's just the silly blathering of godless fools. There is no such thing as "human reason" in the sense that you use it. You are suggesting that logic is somehow flawed and that the best we as human beings can do falls entirely short of being able to determine the truth by way of sound reason. That our best efforts remain inherently flawed in ways that we are unable to detect. Such a belief renders all truth claims unfalsifiable because no argument can be presented that one can know for sure is valid.

As an example, let's say that your worldview says that the sky is green and I come along and logically prove that it is in fact, blue. If our ability to use reason is fundamentally flawed then what's to stop you from objecting to my logic and declaring it "human reasoning"? There isn't anything to stop you from doing that if your use if the term "human reasoning" is valid and so I say again, there is no such thing as "human reasoning".

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Philetus]

Calling yourself a Christian doesn't make you one. I have no idea who either you or your husband are but I suspect that if I hate your husband there is good reason to do so. (i.e. he blasphemes or lies or both). It's not as if I go around looking for people to hate.

You don't know what Jesus resorted too! Do you think that every word that Jesus ever spoke is written in the gospels? He certainly did call people fools and hypocrites and He repeatedly talks about people He hates throughout the Old Testament. I have a feeling that they all wanted to kill Him so badly because He was so friendly and nice to all those around Him who thought and acted like they were religious and pious and who were actually full of blasphemy and dead men's bones. Yeah, I'm sure that's it. He was so sugary sweet to everyone around Him that they just couldn't take it any more and decided to kill Him.

Whatever!


... you can expect to incur hostility from me. Otherwise, if you respond with something that resembles sound reason then I will not only be kind, I will be totally excited and delighted that I have found someone who is worth the time and effort it takes to think through and write these posts.


Very convincing!


Resting in Him,
Clete

You don't know what Jesus resorted too!

Neither do you, my brother. Neither do you!

Give it a rest, friend. Give it a rest.

God didn't say, 'I won't call anyone a fool if you don't." He just said, "Don't you do it."

God didn't say. "I won't kill anyone." He just said, "Don't you murder."

God didn't say, "I won't incinerate Sodom and Gomorrah.” He just said, “You love your enemies.”

God didn't say, "I won't take back what I give." He just told us not to steal, to lend without expecting to be repaid, and to give.

God didn't say, "I won't judge." He just said, You ain't fit to be a judge.

God didn’t say, “I’m not God.” He just said, You aren’t!

God said, "Vengeance is mine." And that is at least one area where he neither invites help nor will he tolerate it from us. Why? Because judging on the basis of our knowledge of good and evil is the worst kind of insincerity and duplicity there is.

I love you, man and you are right: It just ain't worth the time and trouble. So why do you keep doing it?

Is it because some of us 'worthless scumbags' might eventually get it?

Get it?
Philetus

 

[Johnny Boy]

Clete, your reason isn't really reason at all. You two have been brainwashed.

 

[Philetus]

Clete, your reason isn't really reason at all. You two have been brainwashed.

Yeah, its like evil, isn't it?:dizzy:

 

[Philetus]

Based on my vast and extensive knowledge of good and evil, Clete is right about at least two things! Open Theism and Johnny Boy is an idiot!

That's it I'm banned. GONE.
Serving a week to ten days, without parole.
Philetus is :banned:
Put it up on the board Knight! I'm banned.
Don't make me use the explicator going through my head .. Just do it...

 

[Johnny Boy]

Good! bye!

Your arguments are like the creationist crap.

When confronted with serious questions you escape into emotionalism. "We can't discuss that! Human reason doesn't exist! It's just the terms not the concept!"

Pathetic!

 

[Clete]

Neither do you, my brother. Neither do you!

I never said otherwise.

Give it a rest, friend. Give it a rest.

God didn't say, 'I won't call anyone a fool if you don't." He just said, "Don't you do it."

He said not to do it without cause.

God didn't say. "I won't kill anyone." He just said, "Don't you murder."

How is this relevant?

God didn't say, "I won't incinerate Sodom and Gomorrah.” He just said, “You love your enemies.”

He [God] also said, "those who rebuke the wicked will have delight, And a good blessing will come upon them."

Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear.

Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.

“Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth.

God didn't say, "I won't take back what I give." He just told us not to steal, to lend without expecting to be repaid, and to give.

Again, how is this relevant?

God didn't say, "I won't judge." He just said, You ain't fit to be a judge.

"...if you're a hypocrite."

This is the most I've ever seen you completely ignore the context of Biblical teachings.

God didn’t say, “I’m not God.” He just said, You aren’t!

No duh!

God said, "Vengeance is mine." And that is at least one area where he neither invites help nor will he tolerate it from us. Why? Because judging on the basis of our knowledge of good and evil is the worst kind of insincerity and duplicity there is.

God delegated his vengeance to the government authorities and then commanded those in government to practrice justice without mercy and command us as individuals to judge with righteous judgment and not like the hypocrites do.

I love you, man and you are right: It just ain't worth the time and trouble. So why do you keep doing it?

Doing what?
I think you are assuming I am more emotionally wrapped up in this than I am. I had the time to respond to this persons accusations and so I did. I won't lose any sleep over her or anyone else on this thread.

Is it because some of us 'worthless scumbags' might eventually get it?

Get it?
Philetus

I don't think I do get it.
Who are you and what have you done with Philetus?

 

[Clete]

Good! bye!

Your arguments are like the creationist crap.

When confronted with serious questions you escape into emotionalism. "We can't discuss that! Human reason doesn't exist! It's just the terms not the concept!"

Pathetic!

You really need to calm down. My last post in response to the "human reasoning" thing wasn't emotional or insulting in any way and you respond with a juvenile one liner that was clearly emotionally based and intentionally insulting. How is anyone supposed to take you seriously when you're such a gigantic emotionally out of control hypocrite? You sound like a thirteen year old child, for crying out loud!

No one here insisted that you agree with me. You don't have to buy a single word I say. But this is a debate forum you knuckle-head! This isn't a show up in the middle of a conversation, tout your opinion out there and declare all arguments to the contrary refuted. That isn't how debates work. If you want to debate something then engage the issue on the merits of the issue. If I am wrong then prove it. If you can't prove it then acknowledge that I've made a point you hadn't considered before and go on to the next issue or be on your way.

As it is, you waste everyone's time and are good for nothing but to be made fun of and ridiculed. You are everything that is wrong with internet forums. You and your kind are the lowest common denominator in the internet universe. You deserve to be ridiculed as the fool that you are portraying yourself to be. If you don't like it, GOOD! You aren't supposed to like it - that's the whole point. If you would like to be taken seriously then bring something more substantive that your mere opinion and your smart mouth. I gave you a huge opportunity for some heavy duty substantive debate and you didn't even bother to read it. I don't know what else you expected in return. You get out of these forums what you put into them. They can be a gigantic waste of time and a source of tremendous frustration or they can be immense opportunities to learn and to hone and defend one's own beliefs. It really is entirely up to you.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Lon]

There just might be a second round, after all.

And in this corner, weighing in with sticks and stones ...


Oh, come on. And play.

Right now he is calling my bluff.

You will get a turn.

Hmmm, Root beer or cola? Dots or Snowcaps? What do you recommend?

Hurry, the previews are almost over........(balcony or front row?)

 

[Johnny Boy]

Clete's brilliant post #5983;

"I didn't say humans can't reason.... there is no such thing as human reason."


Bright boy!

 

[Lon]

I've never seen you insult anyone with less than three really good evil lines.:chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:

What the hell were we talking about before you guys changed th game to red-rover?

I'm here by banning myself for a whole friken weak.

shhh.....don't respond....you are on hiatus....it would be fricken.....you spelled fry' ken (funny stuff).

That's it I'm banned. GONE.
Serving a week to ten days, without parole.
Philetus is :banned:
Put it up on the board Knight! I'm banned.
Don't make me use the explicator going through my head .. Just do it...

This is highly disappointing..... Got my popcorn and butter (and wet naps in pocket), some dots & snowcaps. A good mix of all different kinds of soda, and a great seat, then the projector burns through the movie reel. What now? Butter smeared nintendo game controller? I feel like just handing it all to the beggar outside the movie and walking home. I'm debatting whether or not to give him the wet naps too, I know, I just have to figure out if not giving them to him is worth the entertainment value in looking back on reflexion.

 

[patman]

Clete's brilliant post #5983.

"I didn't say humans can't reason, I said there's no such thing as human reason."

Bright boy.

You lack the ability to read what he meant? He in a 'round about way' is telling you that you don't know what you are talking about but pretend that you do.

You really think you can depend on your own reasoning for everything? There is a time where you have to go beyond yourself and get facts and opinions from outside yourself.

Anyway...

Did God know the future before he created time?

 

[Johnny Boy]

I depend on my reasoning. You guys depend on Enyart for yours.

Sponge!

 

[patman]

I depend on my reasoning. You guys depend on Enyart for yours.

Sponge!

Ya know, I didn't know Enyart was an open theism until about a year after I became one.:jawdrop: There are forum users, and there are insane forum users, like you, who try to read someone's life without even knowing anything about them. It is fun to see you try tho.

And I can't believe you tried to neg rep me for disagreeing with you:chuckle:. Are you that angry? I guess when all you get is Neg rep you are gonna give neg rep, eh?

That's just sad. 0 rep points won't get you far there.:doh:

I find it interesting you will not answer the simple question, tho. Is it that hard for you to answer? Did God know the future before he created time?

 

[Johnny Boy]

I read your life pretty good.

Sponge of Enyart!

 

[patman]

Mod's, do we have to put up with this?

I read your life pretty good.

Sponge of Enyart!

Whatever happened to discussion, JB?

 

[patman]

Based on my vast and extensive knowledge of good and evil, Clete is right about at least two things! Open Theism and Johnny Boy is an idiot!

That's it I'm banned. GONE.
Serving a week to ten days, without parole.
Philetus is :banned:
Put it up on the board Knight! I'm banned.
Don't make me use the explicator going through my head .. Just do it...

What, are you banned so JB might live?

I guess we all need a break every now and then. Enjoy the Vacation. Bring back a souvenir.

 

[Yorzhik]

Clete's brilliant post #5983;

"I didn't say humans can't reason.... there is no such thing as human reason."


Bright boy!

"there is no such thing as human reason". Huh... that kinda makes sense. I never thought about that. But, Johnny Boy, I'm not sold on the idea as a whole. Are you arguing that human's do have reason?