ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[Lon]

We are way off base here. This needs to be a separate tread.

Good call. It has a little bit to do with it as to OV interpretation, but I believe you are right, It could rabbit trail quickly.

 

[Lon]

Why does eternity have to exist outside of time (whatever that means). Time is not a thing, not a place, not space.

Endless time is the Hebraic concept of eternity (word studies and context in the OT). Timelessness is a Platonic philosophy adopted by Augustine and others (eternal now). It would be begging the question to assume that eternity or God exists outside of time. Time is a fundamental aspect of any personal being's experience. It is not something one can be 'outside' of.

His clarifier for the statement went along the same line as Bodger's initial post here:

God is eternal which in his mind means "timeless." When God created all things, He created our perception of time, but being finite (or semi-finite) beings, our perception concerning this is trapped. We cannot logically think outside of time, duration, and increments. "We are stuck measuring everything by 'time."

Eternity, he went on, 'by definition' is already outside of time by its own definition as well.

 

[godrulz]

Is it a gap in history where contingencies are suspended or a pause in the story to worship and Glorify the Lamb? :chuckle:

It is an ongoing gap of many centuries so far.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

It is an ongoing gap of many centuries so far.

:thumb:

And, the gap will continue as long as Israel as a nation is Loammi...

They will continue as Loammi until the last member (that God foreknew) of the Body of Christ is brought in and the Body is caught up.

 

[Philetus]

:thumb:

And, the gap will continue as long as Israel as a nation is Loammi...

They will continue as Loammi until the last member (that God foreknew) of the Body of Christ is brought in and the Body is caught up.

That's a good solid Settled View statement. Really. Compliments!
I wonder if the Open View proponents would say it any differently.

 

[Philetus]

There are quite a few interpretations of when and if this took place.

One interpretation is that it happened as described in Maccabeas when a pig was offered on the altar.

Another, when the first temple was destroyed.

Another interpretation was when Christ was killed ("Destroy this temple and it will be raised again in 3 days")

And yet another is that we are still within the time frame either as a pause or figuratively.

Why not .... E. All of the above. ?????

The risk God takes in being patient with humanity is that the abominations, tribulations and conflicts will escalate. In fact it is a 'given' they will until Christ returns and puts an end to the resistance to His Lordship and Kingdom.

Contingencies anyone?

 

[Philetus]

It is an ongoing gap of many centuries so far.

Is God 'imutable', silent, inactive or transcendent during this 'gap'? Is this gap some 'dispensationalized adjustment' that God must make? A suspension of His more perfect plan until the parts of the watch fall into place from shaking the bag? I'm not trying to be hard or cute, but I just don't see the gap. Gap between what and what? (And numbering the seals and bowls does not answer the question.)

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Is God 'imutable', silent, inactive or transcendent during this 'gap'? Is this gap some 'dispensationalized adjustment' that God must make? A suspension of His more perfect plan until the parts of the watch fall into place from shaking the bag? I'm not trying to be hard or cute, but I just don't see the gap. Gap between what and what? (And numbering the seals and bowls does not answer the question.)

Gap between Israel's fall and Israel's rise. Gap between the 69th and 70th
week of Daniel's prophecy. Gap between the fulfillment of the feast of Pentecost
and the feast of Trumpets.

Hey, I don't even understand this whole Open View/Settled View argument.
I know mankind has a free will, and at the same time God is in control and things
will ultimately work out according to what his word has said.

Don't ask me how. He's God.

 

[Philetus]

His clarifier for the statement went along the same line as Bodger's initial post here:

God is eternal which in his mind means "timeless." When God created all things, He created our perception of time, but being finite (or semi-finite) beings, our perception concerning this is trapped. We cannot logically think outside of time, duration, and increments. "We are stuck measuring everything by 'time."

Eternity, he went on, 'by definition' is already outside of time by its own definition as well.

Of course we can imagine 'timelessness'! We are having this discussion aren't we? So this creation of our perception concerning time, is it a perception of reality or a delusion?

 

[Philetus]

Gap between Israel's fall and Israel's rise. Gap between the 69th and 70th
week of Daniel's prophecy. Gap between the fulfillment of the feast of Pentecost
and the feast of Trumpets.

Hey, I don't even understand this whole Open View/Settled View argument.
I know mankind has a free will, and at the same time God is in control and things
will ultimately work out according to what his word has said.

Don't ask me how. He's God.

:thumb: I think that is a great handle on the discussion!

uh, would that be meticulous control?:dizzy: :chuckle:

I think we will all turn out to be 'Ah-millennialist'.
When Jesus returns we will stand with our mouths open, chins on our chests, and admit:
“Aaahhhh …. I never thought of that.”


Gap between what we know and what we think we know?

 

[Philetus]

How about a pause between God's action/offer and humanity’s response.

 

[Lon]

That's a good solid Settled View statement. Really. Compliments!
I wonder if the Open View proponents would say it any differently.

It appears to me OV is as or almost as divergent in eschatology as SV. How close is that to accurate? (curiosity, nothing more)


In Him

 

[godrulz]

Is God 'imutable', silent, inactive or transcendent during this 'gap'? Is this gap some 'dispensationalized adjustment' that God must make? A suspension of His more perfect plan until the parts of the watch fall into place from shaking the bag? I'm not trying to be hard or cute, but I just don't see the gap. Gap between what and what? (And numbering the seals and bowls does not answer the question.)

God is very active during the gap, the Church Age. He is dynamic, not static. He is transcendent bringing history to culmination. He is immanent in His redemptive history calling out a people until the final trump sounds.

The reason for the gap (Peter) is that He is not willing that any should perish. The gospel is still going forward. There is a sense that our preaching or lack thereof may affect the exact time that He pulls the plug on the Church Age (hinted at verses that talk about hastening or delaying his coming). The Father determines, the Son does not know. From an Open Theist perspective, it is not just that the incarnation veiled the Son from knowing the hour of His return. It is a matter that it is unsettled and the Father will decide at the opportune time (cf. Gal. 4:4 the first coming was related to the fulness of time, opportune time, not a fatalistic date predestined before creation).

The gap is between the first coming of the Messiah and His Second Coming after the Tribulation (70 th week). This is the mystery of the chuch age hidden in the valley of the mountain peaks of OT prophecy of first and second coming of Messiah. John Walvoord's Daniel/Revelation commentaries or Dwight Pentecost's "Things to Come" give the biblical evidence for this gap.

 

[godrulz]

It appears to me OV is as or almost as divergent in eschatology as SV. How close is that to accurate? (curiosity, nothing more)


In Him

OV is not formalized and systematized in every area of eschatology. Some prominent Open Theists even seem to lean to universalism (no hell). Eschatology is not the defining issue of OT, so a variety of views would be held depending on the proponents denomination of origin.

 

[elected4ever]

God is very active during the gap, the Church Age. He is dynamic, not static. He is transcendent bringing history to culmination. He is immanent in His redemptive history calling out a people until the final trump sounds.

The reason for the gap (Peter) is that He is not willing that any should perish. The gospel is still going forward. There is a sense that our preaching or lack thereof may affect the exact time that He pulls the plug on the Church Age (hinted at verses that talk about hastening or delaying his coming). The Father determines, the Son does not know. From an Open Theist perspective, it is not just that the incarnation veiled the Son from knowing the hour of His return. It is a matter that it is unsettled and the Father will decide at the opportune time (cf. Gal. 4:4 the first coming was related to the fulness of time, opportune time, not a fatalistic date predestined before creation).

The gap is between the first coming of the Messiah and His Second Coming after the Tribulation (70 th week). This is the mystery of the chuch age hidden in the valley of the mountain peaks of OT prophecy of first and second coming of Messiah. John Walvoord's Daniel/Revelation commentaries or Dwight Pentecost's "Things to Come" give the biblical evidence for this gap.

There is no gap, only progression. There is no 7 year great tribulation, only the return of Christ and our transformation. You guys get a grip. The seventieth year has come and gone 2000 years ago.

 

[Philetus]

God is very active during the gap, the Church Age. He is dynamic, not static. He is transcendent bringing history to culmination. He is immanent in His redemptive history calling out a people until the final trump sounds.

The reason for the gap (Peter) is that He is not willing that any should perish. The gospel is still going forward. There is a sense that our preaching or lack thereof may affect the exact time that He pulls the plug on the Church Age (hinted at verses that talk about hastening or delaying his coming). The Father determines, the Son does not know. From an Open Theist perspective, it is not just that the incarnation veiled the Son from knowing the hour of His return. It is a matter that it is unsettled and the Father will decide at the opportune time (cf. Gal. 4:4 the first coming was related to the fulness of time, opportune time, not a fatalistic date predestined before creation).

The gap is between the first coming of the Messiah and His Second Coming after the Tribulation (70 th week). This is the mystery of the chuch age hidden in the valley of the mountain peaks of OT prophecy of first and second coming of Messiah. John Walvoord's Daniel/Revelation commentaries or Dwight Pentecost's "Things to Come" give the biblical evidence for this gap.

We are so close together on this.

This gap between the first coming and return, the 'church age', is that not the pause for the emergence of the kingdom witnessed to and experienced/extended by the church in the power of the Holy Spirit through evangelism and worship? This is the pause that affords time for repentance; a pause of yet undetermined time. The church is not an after thought because Israel blew it, anymore than the calling into existence of Israel was an after thought because Adam blew it. There are not two agendas anymore than there are two gospels. One for the church and one for Israel; one for Jewish Christians and one for Gentile Christians. Nor are there two Kingdoms; one now spiritual and one later actual. Not both/and but rather same/and.

 

[Philetus]

OV is not formalized and systematized in every area of eschatology. Some prominent Open Theists even seem to lean to universalism (no hell). Eschatology is not the defining issue of OT, so a variety of views would be held depending on the proponents denomination of origin.

dito, It's a relatively young theological discipline. We have our work cut out for us.

But, if OT does not inform our views of eschatology, what the heck does it inform?

 

[Philetus]

There is no gap, only progression. There is no 7 year great tribulation, only the return of Christ and our transformation. You guys get a grip. The seventieth year has come and gone 2000 years ago.

So far there has been about 2000 years of tribulation, some greater than others. I think (hope? pray?) my 'great' tribulation was in the sixties. I just hope last week wasn't an indicator of how the next seven years are going to go. Gives one time to pause, reflect, rethink and if necessary ... repent.



Godrulz, is this future 'great tribulation' going to be the result of cumulative contingencies gone haywire or the direct meticulous intervention of God?

 

[godrulz]

We are so close together on this.

This gap between the first coming and return, the 'church age', is that not the pause for the emergence of the kingdom witnessed to and experienced/extended by the church in the power of the Holy Spirit through evangelism and worship? This is the pause that affords time for repentance; a pause of yet undetermined time. The church is not an after thought because Israel blew it, anymore than the calling into existence of Israel was an after thought because Adam blew it. There are not two agendas anymore than there are two gospels. One for the church and one for Israel; one for Jewish Christians and one for Gentile Christians. Nor are there two Kingdoms; one now spiritual and one later actual. Not both/and but rather same/and.

We are so close together on this. I definitely reject Mid-Acts Jewish vs Gentile Christians post-cross/pre-Paul, but I do distinguish the people of God in the OT (Israel) from the people of God in the NT (Church).

I also support a now, but not yet sense of the kingdom. His rulership continues even without an earthly kingdom and despite the rejection of national Israel.

 

[godrulz]

dito, It's a relatively young theological discipline. We have our work cut out for us.

But, if OT does not inform our views of eschatology, what the heck does it inform?

It informs our understanding of God (attributes) and His ways more than his potential plan for the future. Enyart's 'The Plot' combines Open Theism, dispensationalism, and an eschatological view. I think a variety of end-time views could fit under Calvinism, Open Theism, or Arminianism. e.g. neither of these soteriological views support or negate pre vs post trib or millennial views, per se.