ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[Philetus]

Having your sins forgiven is not salvation!
Salvation is the receiving of life from the dead!

Salvation is the receiving of life from the LIVING Christ!

Your reality is wacko, your 'reason' follows suit.

 

[themuzicman]

Your faith shapes your reality. Your reason is adjusted to fit your reality. That is why it is an impossibility not to believe in something. There is no such thing as an atheist.

Do you suppose that faith and reason aren't mutually exclusive, but that engaging in a rational discussion of one's systematic theology and the examining of what one believes may be a valid course of action?

The problem is that you're claiming that because you believe something in spite of the rational arguments against it, and somehow you're claiming superiority because of it.

Muz

 

[patman]

This is a little off topic, but Clete might want to make another post soon

:chuckle:

 

[elected4ever]

Salvation is the receiving of life from the LIVING Christ!

Your reality is wacko, your 'reason' follows suit.

How would you know. Your still dead.

 

[elected4ever]

Do you suppose that faith and reason aren't mutually exclusive, but that engaging in a rational discussion of one's systematic theology and the examining of what one believes may be a valid course of action?

The problem is that you're claiming that because you believe something in spite of the rational arguments against it, and somehow you're claiming superiority because of it.

Muz

No I don;t think they are mutually exclusive. We make decisions basted on the knowledge we bring to the table. I do not trust anyone who bases there belief on human reasoning alone.

 

[VanhoozerRocks]

So does anyone think Aquinas' metalinguistic theory of analogical language regarding God apply to Calmanianism debate?

 

[Bob Hill]

When God wanted to make a comment about Himself in contrast to us, it said: Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

God said that through Paul.

Obviously, God was not foolish.

God's foolishness is wiser than the smartest man's wisdom on the Earth.

Bob

 

[Bob Hill]

Here is an interesting passage about God and His emotions.

1 Sam 15:10-35 Now the word of the LORD came to Samuel, saying, 11 “I greatly regret that I have set up Saul as king, for he has turned back from following Me, and has not performed My commandments.” And it grieved Samuel, and he cried out to the LORD all night. 12 So when Samuel rose early in the morning to meet Saul, it was told Samuel, saying, “Saul went to Carmel, and indeed, he set up a monument for himself; and he has gone on around, passed by, and gone down to Gilgal.” 13 Then Samuel went to Saul, and Saul said to him, “Blessed are you of the LORD! I have performed the commandment of the LORD.” 14 But Samuel said, “What then is this bleating of the sheep in my ears, and the lowing of the oxen which I hear?” 15 And Saul said, “They have brought them from the Amalekites; for the people spared the best of the sheep and the oxen, to sacrifice to the LORD your God; and the rest we have utterly destroyed.” 16 Then Samuel said to Saul, “Be quiet! And I will tell you what the LORD said to me last night.” And he said to him, “Speak on.” 17 So Samuel said, “When you were little in your own eyes, were you not head of the tribes of Israel? And did not the LORD anoint you king over Israel? 18 “Now the LORD sent you on a mission, and said, ‘Go, and utterly destroy the sinners, the Amalekites, and fight against them until they are consumed.’ 19 Why then did you not obey the voice of the LORD? Why did you swoop down on the spoil, and do evil in the sight of the LORD?” 20 And Saul said to Samuel, “But I have obeyed the voice of the LORD, and gone on the mission on which the LORD sent me, and brought back Agag king of Amalek; I have utterly destroyed the Amalekites. 21 “But the people took of the plunder, sheep and oxen, the best of the things which should have been utterly destroyed, to sacrifice to the LORD your God in Gilgal.” 22 Then Samuel said: “Has the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, As in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, And to heed than the fat of rams. 23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, And stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the LORD, He also has rejected you from being king.” 24 Then Saul said to Samuel, “I have sinned, for I have transgressed the commandment of the LORD and your words, because I feared the people and obeyed their voice. 25 “Now therefore, please pardon my sin, and return with me, that I may worship the LORD.” 26 But Samuel said to Saul, “I will not return with you, for you have rejected the word of the LORD, and the LORD has rejected you from being king over Israel.” 27 And as Samuel turned around to go away, Saul seized the edge of his robe, and it tore. 28 So Samuel said to him, “The LORD has torn the kingdom of Israel from you today, and has given it to a neighbor of yours, who is better than you. 29 “And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent. For He is not a man, that He should repent.” 30 Then he said, “I have sinned; yet honor me now, please, before the elders of my people and before Israel, and return with me, that I may worship the LORD your God.” 31 So Samuel turned back after Saul, and Saul worshiped the LORD. 32 Then Samuel said, “Bring Agag king of the Amalekites here to me.” So Agag came to him cautiously. And Agag said, “Surely the bitterness of death is past.” 33 But Samuel said, “As your sword has made women childless, so shall your mother be childless among women.” And Samuel hacked Agag in pieces before the LORD in Gilgal. 34 Then Samuel went to Ramah, and Saul went up to his house at Gibeah of Saul. 35 And Samuel went no more to see Saul until the day of his death. Nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul, and the LORD regretted that He had made Saul king over Israel.

Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

Notice how God reacted to Israel, and also that He might know all that was in the heart of the princes of Babylon.

1 Chr 21:15 And God sent an angel to Jerusalem to destroy it. As he was destroying, the Lord looked and repented of the disaster, and said to the angel who was destroying, “It is enough; now restrain your hand.” And the angel of the Lord stood by the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite.
2 Chr 32:31 However, regarding the ambassadors of the princes of Babylon, whom they sent to him to inquire about the wonder that was done in the land, God withdrew from him, in order to test him, that He might know all that was in his heart.

Bob Hill

 

[Philetus]

How would you know. Your still dead.

Dead man typing.

 

[Philetus]

When God wanted to make a comment about Himself in contrast to us, it said: Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

God said that through Paul.

Obviously, God was not foolish.

God's foolishness is wiser than the smartest man's wisdom on the Earth.

Bob

So true! But when you read some of the nonsense posted here ... well ... is it any wonder that the world isn't listening. Makes one wonder if somewhere along the line (lately) God hasn't consider revamping the whole thing and giving new brains (supernaturally) to the brain dead.

I wonder how God feels about this:

No I don;t think they are mutually exclusive. We make decisions basted on the knowledge we bring to the table. I do not trust anyone who bases there belief on human reasoning alone.

and this:

Your faith shapes your reality. Your reason is adjusted to fit your reality. That is why it is an impossibility not to believe in something. There is no such thing as an atheist.

in light of this:

So does anyone think Aquinas' metalinguistic theory of analogical language regarding God apply to Calmanianism debate?

Makes ya think, don't it.
:bang: :hammer: :sigh:


So E4E, are you bring knowledge or faith to the table?

 

[Bob Hill]

I'm really glad that we have a certain amount of free will, otherwise, if everything was already planned by God, we would just be little robots.

Bob

 

[Philetus]

Isaiah 46
1 Bel bows down, Nebo stoops low; their idols are borne by beasts of burden. The images that are carried about are burdensome, a burden for the weary. 2 They stoop and bow down together; unable to rescue the burden, they themselves go off into captivity. 3 "Listen to me, O house of Jacob, all you who remain of the house of Israel, you whom I have upheld since you were conceived, and have carried since your birth. 4 Even to your old age and gray hairs I am he, I am he who will sustain you. I have made you and I will carry you; I will sustain you and I will rescue you.

5 "To whom will you compare me or count me equal? To whom will you liken me that we may be compared? 6 Some pour out gold from their bags and weigh out silver on the scales; they hire a goldsmith to make it into a god, and they bow down and worship it. 7 They lift it to their shoulders and carry it; they set it up in its place, and there it stands. From that spot it cannot move. Though one cries out to it, it does not answer; it cannot save him from his troubles. 8 "Remember this, fix it in mind, take it to heart, you rebels. 9 Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. 10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please. 11 From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose. What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned, that will I do. 12 Listen to me, you stubborn-hearted, you who are far from righteousness. 13 I am bringing my righteousness near, it is not far away; and my salvation will not be delayed. I will grant salvation to Zion, my splendor to Israel.

It gives me great comfort and builds my faith to know that we serve a God who is faithful, and able to accomplish his purposes regardless of what we bring (or fail to bring) to the table.

Loving God with 'all your mind' is an exhilarating way to live. There is so much to learn.

The alternative is a mind like concrete: thoroughly mixed and firmly set.

 

[Philetus]

So does anyone think Aquinas' metalinguistic theory of analogical language regarding God apply to Calmanianism debate?

Mankind is endowed with a multitude of languages, but lest we forget, the biblical root for such endowment was babble. Solving problems by creating new languages or vocabulary is both a blessing and a danger. The blessing is that the word of God is not (easily) reduced to an idol (a book to be worshiped, proof-texted, and used thoughtlessly as a weapon to justify a mindless faith and call it reality. The danger presents in the form of our heads out weighing our hearts, and thinking ourselves wise we become fools. There is a limit to how much we can manage the mystery.

Maybe if you gave us a précis of metalinquistic theory and tell us why it interests you, we might bite.

 

[Philetus]

Calmanianism?

Anyone want to talk about Open Theism?

 

[godrulz]

Calmanianism?

Anyone want to talk about Open Theism?

I do, I do.

 

[Philetus]

I do, I do.

:rotfl:

Been missing you!

Hey if you get the chance, read Ray S. Anderson's (Fuller Seminary) newest book, An Emergent Theology for Emerging Churches. IVP, 2006. Its an easy read. And don't let the buzz words in the title throw you. He deals with the Antioch/Jerusalem tussle in a refreshing way. Even has some OV flavor in a place or two. Basically calls for the emerging church (whatever that is) to do its homework.

 

[zapp]

Calmanianism?

Anyone want to talk about Open Theism?

Can those who are not elected to have this discussion enter in to the discussion?

I have faith that there will be a discussion..... isn't that enough?

Or perhaps such a discussion is only fit for another dispensation...:chuckle:

 

[Lon]

I’m glad the question didn’t get lost.

Open Theism is a response against ‘tenuous’ theologies. It certainly doesn’t answer all the questions. Yet. But, its open. It is a young discipline as theologies go, and the others go way back but post date the scripture and experience of the first century church and are the product of Christendom and Greek Philosophy. Still, the OV resolves on a very basic level concerns about the dynamic, relational and personal expressions found in scripture about God. )

I appreciate this. It helps open discussion between us and appreciate (at least a tad) one another's difficulties.
Sorry I let this go for a tad. Your discussion with E4E needed no interruption.

The only hope we have is not that God has settled every future detail (or even already knows the outcome of every contingency) but rather that even in giving others a significant say so in their own existence, God remains faithful and will fulfill every promise made in Christ. The future God has planed for those who embrace the truth about God revealed in the Gospel and the future that Christ is even now preparing (“I go to prepare …”) and the future the Spirit of Christ Jesus is preparing us for, is not yet. Our guarantee that it will be is God’s own faithfulness. It is in Him we place our trust, not in a settled future, not even in His ‘immutability’; no, we trust HIM! not because he knows or controls the future in meticulous detail, but because NOTHING can separate us from His love in Christ.

It is more than mere academics; knowing him in the power of his resurrection that happened in time and place informs the future, and from our perspective at least doesn’t settle it. Why else pray, serve and grow into his likeness?

Moreover, the dialog is important because it shapes the church’s witness and the message we send to the world. The tenuous nature of the message of a settled view communicates that the decisions people make have no real bearing on the future, regardless how many ‘alter calls’ or ‘altar calls’ are issued.

There is truth in this. God is relational to us. I've tried in the past to reconcile these ideas here in discussion. I don't think that a settled future necessarily detracts, it just seems to with logical conclusions from the OV. I don't believe the SV closes those doors logically like OV does looking in. It is difficult for both of us I think because we are talking about dichotomy. It appears contradictory, but it isn't. The triune view, and how Judas actually killed himself come to mind for examples. The discussion is good and needed for our dialogue.

Either the future is settled or it is open to a greater or lesser extent. The discussion among the thinking is the degree to which it is open. The future is settled as far as God has determined it. It is open to the degree that God has given his creatures a significant say in their own futures and will not compromise their freedom to choose. The future is as bright as the promises of God in Christ. God knows how he plans to bless us in the future. What he doesn't know is exactly who will and who will not embrace that future.

Also in Him,
(Just not resting as much as Clete. :grave: )

LOL Clete does rest a lot.

Yeah, same here. I'd guess our biggest point of difference is how much God knows of future reality. It seems to be the hingepin for our respective views.

 

[elected4ever]

I'm really glad that we have a certain amount of free will, otherwise, if everything was already planned by God, we would just be little robots.

Bob

You are quite right. What God has given man sovernty over he also gave the ability to make decisions concerning such, I also believe that God is no fool and reserved to Himself jurisdiction. There are boundaries for man and man is limited.