ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[Lighthouse]

God never changes His mind.. He acts according to immutable character 100% of the time. God's responses are determined by His holy and righteous character.

It appears to us, as humans, to be a mind change when in reality it is simply doing justly according to human change of mind. The change is in us, not God. Humans do change their mind and change character by doing so. This is not true with God and we need to be careful in assigning to God this human characteristic. I do not think that the two should be understood in the same way.

So when God said He changed His mind, He was lying?

 

[elected4ever]

So when God said He changed His mind, He was lying?

When God acts out of His righteous character and exhibits mercy instead of anger it appears that God did change His mind and we have no other reference from a human standpoint but to say that God changed His mine or repented. It is not a change but a consistent acting out out of God's divine Holiness and righteousness. It does not require God to change His mind. It does require God to act righteously to a changed circumstance. The change is required of us and not God. It is man that has to change (repent). So no, the writer of the scripture did not lie but used an inadequate and limited language to describe that which is not human. It does appear to us that God did change His mine or repent. It is our understanding and ability that is limited.

 

[themuzicman]

So, when God says that He will destroy Israel and begin again with Moses, and then after Moses pleads with him, does not destroy Israel, that was not a change? (See Exodus 32)

 

[Lighthouse]

When God acts out of His righteous character and exhibits mercy instead of anger it appears that God did change His mind and we have no other reference from a human standpoint but to say that God changed His mine or repented. It is not a change but a consistent acting out out of God's divine Holiness and righteousness. It does not require God to change His mind. It does require God to act righteously to a changed circumstance. The change is required of us and not God. It is man that has to change (repent). So no, the writer of the scripture did not lie but used an inadequate and limited language to describe that which is not human. It does appear to us that God did change His mine or repent. It is our understanding and ability that is limited.

So when God said He was going to do something, and then decided not to do it, what was that?

 

[Bob Hill]

God changed His mind because of man’s actions.
When Job was talking to God, he said in Job 42:5,6 “I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees You. 6 Therefore I abhor myself, and [Job used the same Hebrew word for the idea of the word, repent.] repent [nacham] in dust and ashes.” This same word [repent, nacham] is used of God repeatedly.

Gen 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the LORD repented that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the LORD said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I repent that I have made them.”

In Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

Does this diminish God's wonder, power, knowledge, or love? No! It shows His compassion, because He starts over again. :bannana:

Bob

 

[RobE]

So, when God says that He will destroy Israel and begin again with Moses, and then after Moses pleads with him, does not destroy Israel, that was not a change? (See Exodus 32)

God was angry, but His plans had been foretold before that moment. History tells us that what happened is what God foreknew would happen.

Genesis 15:12 As the sun was setting, Abram fell into a deep sleep, and a thick and dreadful darkness came over him. 13 Then the LORD said to him, "Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own, and they will be enslaved and mistreated four hundred years. 14 But I will punish the nation they serve as slaves, and afterward they will come out with great possessions. 15 You, however, will go to your fathers in peace and be buried at a good old age. 16 In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure."

Deut. 9:4 After the LORD your God has driven them out before you, do not say to yourself, "The LORD has brought me here to take possession of this land because of my righteousness." No, it is on account of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD is going to drive them out before you. 5 It is not because of your righteousness or your integrity that you are going in to take possession of their land; but on account of the wickedness of these nations, the LORD your God will drive them out before you, to accomplish what he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.​

The account of Moses was recorded here:

Deut. 9: 18 Then once again I fell prostrate before the LORD for forty days and forty nights; I ate no bread and drank no water, because of all the sin you had committed, doing what was evil in the LORD's sight and so provoking him to anger. 19 I feared the anger and wrath of the LORD, for he was angry enough with you to destroy you.

Exodus 32:10 Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation."

11 But Moses sought the favor of the LORD his God. "O LORD," he said, "why should your anger burn against your people, whom you brought out of Egypt with great power and a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians say, 'It was with evil intent that he brought them out, to kill them in the mountains and to wipe them off the face of the earth'? Turn from your fierce anger; relent and do not bring disaster on your people. 13 Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac and Israel, to whom you swore by your own self: 'I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and I will give your descendants all this land I promised them, and it will be their inheritance forever.' " 14 Then the LORD relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.​

A passionate threat stemming from God's anger. Not a change of mind. His plan was laid when He made His covenant with Abraham. Every part of His promise was fulfilled.

You even see His foresight of what His anger would produce for Israel in the future....

Deut. 31: 15 Then the LORD appeared at the Tent in a pillar of cloud, and the cloud stood over the entrance to the Tent. 16 And the LORD said to Moses: "You are going to rest with your fathers, and these people will soon prostitute themselves to the foreign gods of the land they are entering. They will forsake me and break the covenant I made with them. 17 On that day I will become angry with them and forsake them; I will hide my face from them, and they will be destroyed. Many disasters and difficulties will come upon them, and on that day they will ask, 'Have not these disasters come upon us because our God is not with us?' 18 And I will certainly hide my face on that day because of all their wickedness in turning to other gods.​

Don't you find it odd that the Lord even foreknew His own actions. Do you believe for a moment that He isn't free to do as He wills?

Rob

 

[RobE]

God changed His mind because of man’s actions.
When Job was talking to God, he said in Job 42:5,6 “I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees You. 6 Therefore I abhor myself, and [Job used the same Hebrew word for the idea of the word, repent.] repent [nacham] in dust and ashes.” This same word [repent, nacham] is used of God repeatedly.

Gen 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the LORD repented that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the LORD said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I repent that I have made them.”

In Christ,
Bob Hill

I would have to question why God continued with Noah unless He had a long term plan or goal in mind. At that point why didn't God simply stop what the o.v. terms a failed program. It seems that was an opportune moment? God with a perfect plan and outcome in mind would certainly continue the process foreknowing that His goal would be accomplished. If He was uncertain of the future outcome, why would He continue down an unsuccesful road?

Rob

 

[elected4ever]

So, when God says that He will destroy Israel and begin again with Moses, and then after Moses pleads with him, does not destroy Israel, that was not a change? (See Exodus 32)

No

 

[elected4ever]

So when God said He was going to do something, and then decided not to do it, what was that?

You keep your tunnel vision on God changing when it is not God that does the changing. It is man that changes. Every time.

 

[Lighthouse]

You keep your tunnel vision on God changing when it is not God that does the changing. It is man that changes. Every time.

I was simply asking a question. If God decides to do something, then decides not to, what is that? If it's not a change of mind, what is it?

 

[themuzicman]

God was angry, but His plans had been foretold before that moment. History tells us that what happened is what God foreknew would happen.

Foreknew? Or brought about that which He prophesied?

Genesis 15:12 As the sun was setting, Abram fell into a deep sleep, and a thick and dreadful darkness came over him. 13 Then the LORD said to him, "Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own, and they will be enslaved and mistreated four hundred years. 14 But I will punish the nation they serve as slaves, and afterward they will come out with great possessions. 15 You, however, will go to your fathers in peace and be buried at a good old age. 16 In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure."

Deut. 9:4 After the LORD your God has driven them out before you, do not say to yourself, "The LORD has brought me here to take possession of this land because of my righteousness." No, it is on account of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD is going to drive them out before you. 5 It is not because of your righteousness or your integrity that you are going in to take possession of their land; but on account of the wickedness of these nations, the LORD your God will drive them out before you, to accomplish what he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.​

So, God is telling Abraham was He is going to do. Are you saying that God couldn't accomplish this without fixing the course of history beforehand?

The account of Moses was recorded here:

Deut. 9: 18 Then once again I fell prostrate before the LORD for forty days and forty nights; I ate no bread and drank no water, because of all the sin you had committed, doing what was evil in the LORD's sight and so provoking him to anger. 19 I feared the anger and wrath of the LORD, for he was angry enough with you to destroy you.

Exodus 32:10 Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation."​

And this we have the statement of God's intended course.

11 But Moses sought the favor of the LORD his God. "O LORD," he said, "why should your anger burn against your people, whom you brought out of Egypt with great power and a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians say, 'It was with evil intent that he brought them out, to kill them in the mountains and to wipe them off the face of the earth'? Turn from your fierce anger; relent and do not bring disaster on your people. 13 Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac and Israel, to whom you swore by your own self: 'I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and I will give your descendants all this land I promised them, and it will be their inheritance forever.' " 14 Then the LORD relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.

A passionate threat stemming from God's anger. Not a change of mind. His plan was laid when He made His covenant with Abraham. Every part of His promise was fulfilled.

So, God lied to Moses in His anger. Great.

Sorry, but you can't say that God could not have fulfilled His promise while following through on His threat against Israel.

You even see His foresight of what His anger would produce for Israel in the future....

Deut. 31: 15 Then the LORD appeared at the Tent in a pillar of cloud, and the cloud stood over the entrance to the Tent. 16 And the LORD said to Moses: "You are going to rest with your fathers, and these people will soon prostitute themselves to the foreign gods of the land they are entering. They will forsake me and break the covenant I made with them. 17 On that day I will become angry with them and forsake them; I will hide my face from them, and they will be destroyed. Many disasters and difficulties will come upon them, and on that day they will ask, 'Have not these disasters come upon us because our God is not with us?' 18 And I will certainly hide my face on that day because of all their wickedness in turning to other gods.​

Don't you find it odd that the Lord even foreknew His own actions. Do you believe for a moment that He isn't free to do as He wills?

I don't find it odd at all. God was fully aware of the character of His people and what the effect of living in the land He promised them would be. There's absolutely no need for EDF for God to make this prophecy.

And no one has said that God isn't free to do as He wills. The question, here, is whether God can decide to do something, and then change His mind, as we saw in Exodus 32.

Muz

 

[RobE]

Foreknew? Or brought about that which He prophesied?

So, God is telling Abraham was He is going to do. Are you saying that God couldn't accomplish this without fixing the course of history beforehand?

And this we have the statement of God's intended course.

So, God lied to Moses in His anger. Great.

Sorry, but you can't say that God could not have fulfilled His promise while following through on His threat against Israel.

I don't find it odd at all. God was fully aware of the character of His people and what the effect of living in the land He promised them would be. There's absolutely no need for EDF for God to make this prophecy.

God is certainly capable of anything. He didn't lie to Moses any more than He lied to Neb., Jonah, or the Ninevites. He's incapable of lying. God could have fulfilled His promise while following through with His threat against Israel.

And no one has said that God isn't free to do as He wills. The question, here, is whether God can decide to do something, and then change His mind, as we saw in Exodus 32.

I certainly haven't. I was trying to point out that God did as He foretold He would when we review the historical record. It's that simple. The arguments that God changed his mind seem rather sickly when we compare what God foretold would happen and realize that it inevitably did happen just as it was foretold.

Rob

 

[Clete]

I certainly haven't. I was trying to point out that God did as He foretold He would when we review the historical record. It's that simple. The arguments that God changed his mind seem rather sickly when we compare what God foretold would happen and realize that it inevitably did happen just as it was foretold.

No it didn't! I haven't been reading this thread and so I don't know specifically which unfulfilled prophecy you are referring to (there are several) but you mentioned Jonah and so his prophecy will do just fine. Nineveh was not destroyed "just as it was foretold". God eventually destroyed it, yes but not in association with Jonah's prophecy. Jonah specifically said "40 DAYS...". There is no way you are going to get around the fact that in addition to the fact that the book of Jonah records the prophecy verbatim for us but that it also explicitly states that God did not do that which He said He would do.

Jonah 3:10 Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented (nacham) from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, AND HE DID NOT DO IT.​

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[RobE]

No it didn't! I haven't been reading this thread and so I don't know specifically which unfulfilled prophecy you are referring to (there are several) but you mentioned Jonah and so his prophecy will do just fine. Nineveh was not destroyed "just as it was foretold". God eventually destroyed it, yes but not in association with Jonah's prophecy. Jonah specifically said "40 DAYS...". There is no way you are going to get around the fact that in addition to the fact that the book of Jonah records the prophecy verbatim for us but that it also explicitly states that God did not do that which He said He would do.

Jonah 3:10 Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented (nacham) from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, AND HE DID NOT DO IT.​

Resting in Him,
Clete

The book of Jonah also reports that Jonah expected Nineveh to repent. Do you really think God knew less than Jonah when He issued the warning to Nineveh?

Rob

 

[godrulz]

You keep your tunnel vision on God changing when it is not God that does the changing. It is man that changes. Every time.

A personal being that could not change in some ways is an impersonal blob. Will, intellect, emotions, freedom, relationship, love, etc. all depend on dynamic change, not static determinism.

 

[elected4ever]

No it didn't! I haven't been reading this thread and so I don't know specifically which unfulfilled prophecy you are referring to (there are several) but you mentioned Jonah and so his prophecy will do just fine. Nineveh was not destroyed "just as it was foretold". God eventually destroyed it, yes but not in association with Jonah's prophecy. Jonah specifically said "40 DAYS...". There is no way you are going to get around the fact that in addition to the fact that the book of Jonah records the prophecy verbatim for us but that it also explicitly states that God did not do that which He said He would do.

Jonah 3:10 Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented (nacham) from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, AND HE DID NOT DO IT.​

Resting in Him,
Clete

Who changed, God or the Ninevites; Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; The Ninevites changed. not God. God acted from His perfect justice and mercy. It did not require a change in God.

 

[Lighthouse]

Who changed, God or the Ninevites; Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; The Ninevites changed. not God. God acted from His perfect justice and mercy. It did not require a change in God.

It didn't require a change in His character, and no one is saying it did. What we are saying is that God decided not to do something He had previously decided to do. How is that not a change?

 

[elected4ever]

A personal being that could not change in some ways is an impersonal blob. Will, intellect, emotions, freedom, relationship, love, etc. all depend on dynamic change, not static determinism.

It does for us, but not God. It appears as change to us and our languages are so limited that we describe it as change but it is not a change. God is not a man that we should think of Him as a man.

 

[Lighthouse]

It does for us, but not God. It appears as change to us and our languages are so limited that we describe it as change but it is not a change. God is not a man that we should think of Him as a man.

Did God decide to destroy Nineveh?

Did God decide not to destroy Nineveh?