lee_merrill
New member
Hi everyone,
Genesis 2:16-17 And the Lord God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil…”
Outside the bounds of what is forbidden (the outside is infinite, what is forbidden is small) there is freedom to choose.
I have a pending response to you as well, Philetus:
Jeremiah 44:12 I will take away the remnant of Judah who were determined to go to Egypt to settle there. They will all perish in Egypt…
That seems pretty clear, only…
Jeremiah 44:14 None of the remnant of Judah who have gone to live in Egypt will escape or survive to return to the land of Judah, to which they long to return and live; none will return except a few fugitives.
So then all the people who went to Egypt were not to perish, only all who were determined to go there, but it does look like God changed his mind between two verses.
And I have some pending questions for Patman:
… if Scripture says both Satan did it, and God did it, then I think the Open View point is still done for, regardless of who was the ultimate cause, there is agency both by Satan (for a bad purpose) and also by God (for a good purpose).
"This is the same lesson we learn from 2 Cor. 12:7 where Paul says that his thorn in the flesh was a messenger of Satan, and yet was given for the purpose of his own holiness. 'To keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me – to keep me from exalting myself!' Now, humility is not Satan's purpose in this affliction. Therefore the purpose is God's. Which means that Satan here is being used by God to accomplish his good purposes in Paul's life." (John Piper)
Hebrews 12:7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father?
Hebrews 12:10 Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness.
And sometimes this discipline is at the hands of sinful men.
2 Samuel 7:14 I will be his father, and he will be my son. When he does wrong, I will punish him with the rod of men, with floggings inflicted by men.
Of which we see an example with Solomon, for instance.
1 Kings 11:25 Rezon was Israel's adversary as long as Solomon lived, adding to the trouble caused by Hadad. So Rezon ruled in Aram and was hostile toward Israel.
This is quite clear language, God did this, though I agree that sin does not flow from God, he is not the source of sin, but his actions do bring about sinful actions.
Romans 5:20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more…
Blessings,
Lee
So then we can sin in heaven? And have a second fall? But then there we be no more sacrifice for sins.godrulz said:This is necessary in order to have genuine love relationships, a higher good than creating robots.
Within the bounds set by his will, I believe:Philetus said:So, just where do you suppose God will let us run our ship? And in what direction … HIS direction only?
Genesis 2:16-17 And the Lord God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil…”
Outside the bounds of what is forbidden (the outside is infinite, what is forbidden is small) there is freedom to choose.
Well, you see, I don’t believe in meticulous control.Exercise a little self control and just admit this whole notion of absolute meticulous control that you get from total foreknowledge and immutability is wrong.
You may have noticed I use understatements as a rule. Certainly I believe God knew, though.“God THOUGHT they MIGHT???? What happened to GOD KNOWS?
Only I believe that sin is bondage, so then a choice to sin is not really part of real freedom.… you can’t admit that God given freedom gives you the option of being out-of-control …
I have a pending response to you as well, Philetus:
I was speaking here of the suffering of Christ, who was an innocent man, the claim here was that God would not afflict an innocent person.Philetus said:… the suffering of Christ Jesus on our behalf is the work of sinful men and the result of sin itself. God willed himself to be handed over to sinful men and die. God did not cause our suffering.
“By his wounds we are healed.”It isn’t the suffering that produces ‘some greater good’.
Actually I meant God’s decree: “at God’s command [i.e. by God’s decision and decree] sinful people punished them, and their fear was of those sinful men, so sinful people and sinful deeds are involved here, and by the plan of God.”Patman said:How is he commanding sin lee?
Well, here is a similar instance:God in chapter 20 said they were going to Babylon, now here he is, 4 chapters later, changing his mind.
Jeremiah 44:12 I will take away the remnant of Judah who were determined to go to Egypt to settle there. They will all perish in Egypt…
That seems pretty clear, only…
Jeremiah 44:14 None of the remnant of Judah who have gone to live in Egypt will escape or survive to return to the land of Judah, to which they long to return and live; none will return except a few fugitives.
So then all the people who went to Egypt were not to perish, only all who were determined to go there, but it does look like God changed his mind between two verses.
You’re quite welcome…Thanks for sharing.
And I have some pending questions for Patman:
… if Scripture says both Satan did it, and God did it, then I think the Open View point is still done for, regardless of who was the ultimate cause, there is agency both by Satan (for a bad purpose) and also by God (for a good purpose).
That’s right, he does."A good God causes Satan to Cause Evil to make Good?"
"This is the same lesson we learn from 2 Cor. 12:7 where Paul says that his thorn in the flesh was a messenger of Satan, and yet was given for the purpose of his own holiness. 'To keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me – to keep me from exalting myself!' Now, humility is not Satan's purpose in this affliction. Therefore the purpose is God's. Which means that Satan here is being used by God to accomplish his good purposes in Paul's life." (John Piper)
I, foolish person that I am, when I read “the Lord took away,” think it means the Lord took away.I already explained how you were taking the verse out of it's context.
Then God’s actions do afflict the righteous sometimes? We also left out God refining the righteous, God afflicts his people for that reason, you know!Yes yes yes, bad things happen to good people when God punishes the wicked.
Hebrews 12:7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father?
Hebrews 12:10 Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness.
And sometimes this discipline is at the hands of sinful men.
2 Samuel 7:14 I will be his father, and he will be my son. When he does wrong, I will punish him with the rod of men, with floggings inflicted by men.
Of which we see an example with Solomon, for instance.
1 Kings 11:23 And God raised up against Solomon another adversary, Rezon son of Eliada, who had fled from his master, Hadadezer king of Zobah.He sometimes uses hard lessons, this is true, but he does not cause sin in this, ever.
1 Kings 11:25 Rezon was Israel's adversary as long as Solomon lived, adding to the trouble caused by Hadad. So Rezon ruled in Aram and was hostile toward Israel.
This is quite clear language, God did this, though I agree that sin does not flow from God, he is not the source of sin, but his actions do bring about sinful actions.
Romans 5:20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more…
Blessings,
Lee