Hilston wrote:
It's messing with your free will if there are no miracles today.
Knight said:
No, there is no reason whatsoever to make that claim. Especially in light of how I explained how God works with us.
You have yet to explain how exactly God prods, and pulls, and influences you without messing with your will. What exactly does He
do? Since Open Theists are so fond of humanizing God, let's consider a comparison. When I want to influence a friend or co-worker, I use words and arguments to try to change their opinion. Or sometimes I can use facial expressions or body language to communicate that I don't like something, and that influences their thoughts and reactions. Or I might schedule a meeting on a day that is not as stressful for my colleagues as another day might be (i.e. not on Monday) if I want to tip the results of that meeting in my favor. These are all examples of how I might influence the will and actions of others. Does God present arguments to you? Does God use facial expressions or body language to influence you? Please give an example of how God does this without messing with your will.
Knight said:
... God (if we allow Him) will direct our attention, ...
How? Does He point His finger? Does He turn your head? Does He cause a Bible verse to float into your line of sight?
Knight said:
... [God will] calm our nerves, sooth our feelings, ...
How? Does He speak to you? Is it audible or just in your head? And how can you tell it's His voice and not your own voice you're hearing?
Knight said:
... [God will] clear our minds, ...
How? Does He muck around in your memory? Does He make you forget whatever was bugging you? Does He distract you (perhaps by pointing again? Waving His arms?).
Knight said:
... [God will] show us wisdom, ...
How does He do that? Does a bright light from heaven shine down on a wise action? Does He speak to you and say, "Hey, that's wisdom there"?
Knight said:
... avail us to all sorts of things we would not have had if we had not called upon Him.
Like what? And how? Does He give you money? Does He give you food? Does He give you a map when you're lost?
Knight said:
... God will direct our steps if we let Him.
Again, how?
Knight said:
Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; 6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths. Do not be wise in your own eyes; Fear the LORD and depart from evil.
Jim, you must reject the above verse and think it is some type of figure of speech.
By what logic do you see my view as rejecting the above verse? I believe God actually directs us by changing our hearts and desires, by changing our wills and intentions. Remember?
Knight said:
... Is there any way a person could actually be "wise in their own eyes" according to you?
Of course.
Knight said:
Let me guess... God decreed that man would THINK he is being wise in his own eyes right?? :dizzy:
No, God decreed that man would actually be wise in his own eyes.
Knight said:
Give me an example of a will that exists OUTSIDE of God's decretive will according to what you believe.
Nothing is outside of God's decretive will. I thought we went over this.
Hilston wrote:
On my view, there is no "altering of upcoming events" because it is all decreed. On your view, there is no "altering of upcoming events," because the future doesn't exist. So the question doesn't really make any sense.
Knight said:
Huh?
The future doesn't exist which is the VERY reason God can and does alter the course of events that are about to transpire.
"Events about to transpire" makes no sense if the future doesn't exist.
Knight said:
Imagine a Christian woman who is depressed and on the verge of suicide, (that is the course of events that are about to take place).
No they're not, not if she doesn't commit suicide.
Knight said:
... God is tugging at her through the work on the Holy Spirit and is urging her to pick up her Bible and meditate on Him.
How? Is He speaking to her saying: "Pick up your Bible ... Piiiiiick .... uuuuuup .... yooooouuur ... Biiiiiii ... blllllle ...."? Is He (gently perhaps) shoving it in her face?
Knight said:
... She does, and prays to God for help. He directs her to passages that sooth her, ...
How? Maybe she opened to 1Chronicles chapter 9. Does He move her hands and fingers without her knowing it?
Knight said:
... calm her and make her realize that all she needs is Him.
How? What does He do to "make her realize" something without messing with her mind?
Knight said:
... She leans not on her own understandings but lets God direct her steps. She does not commit suicide. God worked with her through prayer because she was willing to let Him help her and changed the course of events that were about to happen.
Doesn't God love her enough to calm her and soothe her regardless? Why wouldn't He love her enought to urge her to meditate on Him and even if she is leaning on her own understanding? Why not make her realize that she needs Him even if she doesn't pray? I try to influence people even when they don't ask me to. God is much more loving than I am, so why wouldn't God do the same thing, even more, to make her realize that He loves her?
Knight said:
Your version of the story would go something like this...
God ordained that a woman be depressed and ordained that she wish to commit suicide. God ordained that she pray to Him and ordained every detail of her prayer. God ordained that she think that God answered her prayer when in reality it was God that ordained her depression in the first place.
On my view, she doesn't merely "think" that God answered her prayer. God does actually answer her prayer. Did you forget that part?
Knight said:
She does not have the ability to lean on her own understanding because God is directing her every move.
No, she does have the ability to lean on her own understanding. What kind of logic leads you to such conclusions, Eric? God does not "direct her every move." She directs herself, but all according to God's decrees.
Knight said:
... God put her through hell for His own Glory. :kookoo:
Sorry man... but your version is just plain unbiblical and wacky.
God afflicts people so He can later bless them. The examples are abundant. Joseph. Job. David. Paul.
Job 1:21 And said, "Naked came I out of my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD." 22 In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.
Job 2:10 ... "shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?" In all this did not Job sin with his lips.
Job 13:15 Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him:
Ps 119:67,71 ... Before I was afflicted I went astray: but now have I kept thy word ... It is good for me that I have been afflicted; that I might learn thy statutes.
Ge 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.
2Co 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ’s sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
According to Open Theists, Job, David, Joseph and Paul all spoke foolishly for viewing their afflictions as having come from God. The only Biblical and rational way to trust God is to know that He is truly working all things according to His decrees, all for the good of His elect, even the injustices, afflictions, depressions, genocides and miscarriages.
All according to God's decrees, obviously,
Jim