ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[Lighthouse]

"Open theists proclaim that God cannot know future contingent events. That is the fancy way of referring to events in the future, which result from human beings making free choices. Now that claim sounds innocent enough, but let me show you some of the consequences of that. Think back to the moment when Jesus Christ was dying on the cross. Incidentally, let me tell you what John Sanders, one open theist, says about the cross. He says that God the Father had no knowledge that His Son would end up being crucified. And at that particular moment, when God the Father looks down from heaven and sees His Son hanging on the cross, John Sanders put it in language somewhat like this, "Oops, I guess we have to switch to plan B." Because, you see, to these open theists, God is completely surprised by any large number of events that happened in the world. But this poor, impotent deity, who is described by the open theists, this finite God of open theism, had no way of knowing at the time that Jesus was dying if even one human being would accept His Son as Savior. This poor, impotent deity faced the possibility that the suffering of His Son on the cross would bring about the salvation of no one. Another open theist, who happens to be a friend of mine, Bill Hasker, teaches at a college in Indiana, says that the very fact that there is a church of God is a matter of God's dumb blind luck because God had no way of controlling whatever outcome might follow the crucifixion of Jesus on the cross. Now I believe all of these consequences are absurd."--Ron Nash

I agree. Those conclusions are completely absurd. Of course God knew Jesus was going to die. Isaiah prophesied it, because revealed it to him. Maybe not in full detail, of course. But God knew. Of course the question is whether or not God knew that He was going to send Immanuel before Adam and Eve ate of the tree. Did God know Adam and Eve were going to eat of the tree? Unequivocally, no. He had no reason to. It hadn't happened yet. And why would God predestine such a thing? Because He enjoys playing games?:dizzy:

Trustees of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, the flagship school of the 16 million-member Southern Baptist Convention, passed a resolution saying, "Open theism's denial of God's exhaustive definitive foreknowledge constitutes an egregious biblical and theological departure from orthodoxy and poses a serious threat to evangelical integrity."

It's quite Biblical. God sent the animals to Adam to see what he would name them. He asked Abraham to sacrafice Isaac, to test Abraham's faith.

The Evangelical Theological Society approved a resolution rejecting open theism and supporting the position that "God has complete, accurate and infallible knowledge of all events past, present and future, including all future decisions and actions of free moral agents."

How would anyone, even God know something that doesn't exist? Does Wonderland exist? Is God in Wonderland?

 

[ChristisKing]

Well.... according to Calvinism you didn't even do that did you? After all... if God predestines EVERYTHING... then EVERYTHING must include your sin.

Of course He predestined I would be a sinner, but I did the sinning. God predestined Christ would be killed, but the Romans and Jews killed Him. God predestined Judas would betray Christ, but Judas did the betraying.

ACT 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

JOH 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

 

[Lighthouse]

I picked up on that just from the responses to my limited posts in here. That is why I posted this, what a horrible theology! I can't imagine how you could ever believe that God "doesn't know" something. What kinda god is this?

But if it helps your arminian theology work better then I guess it's tempting to run with it. I mean anything is better than God choosing, electing and predestinating us, right?

Arminian? Open Theism is diametrically opposed to Arminianism. Arminianists beleive that God didn't predestine, but that He knows everything that will ever happen. Open Theists beleive that God can not know that which does not exist.

 

[ChristisKing]

Declaring the end from the beginning, ...the things that are not yet done

Declaring the end from the beginning, ...the things that are not yet done

How would anyone, even God know something that doesn't exist?

By just being God:

ISA 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Of course He predestined I would be a sinner, but I did the sinning.

God has asked me to defend Him from your accusation.

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

You accuse God of far worse than temptation... you accuse God of the sin itself!

 

[Lighthouse]

Of course He knows how He will end things. He began them, and He will end them. THis doesn't mean He knows every detail that will happen within them all. God knows all possibilities, but not specifics. there's not even a reason for Him to know.

 

[ChristisKing]

God has asked me to defend Him from your accusation.

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

You accuse God of far worse than temptation... you accuse God of the sin itself!

God hasn't asked you to any such thing, who do you think you are, an Apostle? How ridiculous!

 

[ChristisKing]

Of course He knows how He will end things. He began them, and He will end them. THis doesn't mean He knows every detail that will happen within them all. God knows all possibilities, but not specifics. there's not even a reason for Him to know.

Oh ok I see, He's just a General Manager, He doesn't get into specifics....like when a sparrow will fall or how many hairs I will have on my head?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

God hasn't asked you to any such thing, who do you think you are, an Apostle? How ridiculous!

What part of "Let no one say" don't you understand?

 

[Lucky]

Oh ok I see, He's just a General Manager, He doesn't get into specifics....like when a sparrow will fall or how many hairs I will have on my head?

Assuming these are your references...

[jesus]Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father's will.[/jesus] - Matt.10.29

I guess if you wanted to make the case that a sparrow has no free will, you might be on to something, but that's irrelevant.

[jesus]But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.[/jesus] - Matt.10.30

God knows the number of hairs on your head right now. Your point?

 

[Lighthouse]

Well, Lucky has given a great response. I see no need to add to it.

 

[Servo]

Does God make you sin?

According to Calvinism, yes!

 

[Servo]

God hasn't asked you to any such thing, who do you think you are, an Apostle? How ridiculous!

But God did predestine Knight to post what he posted, correct?

 

[Emo]

Who & what should I pray for tonight before I lay down for bed? :think:

:think:
:think:

Aahh, nevermind, it's useless, since the future is exhaustively settled I'd just be wasting my time, darn, I'm sorry guys, I forgot.

 

[Carver]

If God, at some point, exhaustively predestined everything, then did God, at that point, surrender His own free will?

The answer pretty much has to be yes, but I just want Calvinists to admit and realize all that their theology involves.

 

[godrulz]

"Open theists proclaim that God cannot know future contingent events. That is the fancy way of referring to events in the future, which result from human beings making free choices. Now that claim sounds innocent enough, but let me show you some of the consequences of that. Think back to the moment when Jesus Christ was dying on the cross. Incidentally, let me tell you what John Sanders, one open theist, says about the cross. He says that God the Father had no knowledge that His Son would end up being crucified. And at that particular moment, when God the Father looks down from heaven and sees His Son hanging on the cross, John Sanders put it in language somewhat like this, "Oops, I guess we have to switch to plan B." Because, you see, to these open theists, God is completely surprised by any large number of events that happened in the world. But this poor, impotent deity, who is described by the open theists, this finite God of open theism, had no way of knowing at the time that Jesus was dying if even one human being would accept His Son as Savior. This poor, impotent deity faced the possibility that the suffering of His Son on the cross would bring about the salvation of no one. Another open theist, who happens to be a friend of mine, Bill Hasker, teaches at a college in Indiana, says that the very fact that there is a church of God is a matter of God's dumb blind luck because God had no way of controlling whatever outcome might follow the crucifixion of Jesus on the cross. Now I believe all of these consequences are absurd."--Ron Nash

Trustees of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, the flagship school of the 16 million-member Southern Baptist Convention, passed a resolution saying, "Open theism's denial of God's exhaustive definitive foreknowledge constitutes an egregious biblical and theological departure from orthodoxy and poses a serious threat to evangelical integrity."

The Evangelical Theological Society approved a resolution rejecting open theism and supporting the position that "God has complete, accurate and infallible knowledge of all events past, present and future, including all future decisions and actions of free moral agents."

I agree with Ron Nash, the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and the Evangelical Theological Society. What do you think?

This is a typical straw man caricature of Open Theism. In reality, God knows some of the future as settled, but knows other aspects of the future as unsettled, open, or possibilities vs certainties. God is also omnicompetent in all views. To say He is impotent shows a gross misunderstanding of the Open View. This view is more about the openness of God's creation rather than about God. It is logically absurd to say an omniscient being can know future free will contingencies exhaustively. The open view affirms that God is omniscient, but that He correctly knows reality as it is: certainites/actualities, possibilities, necessities, etc. This view does not limit God, but affirms revelation and reality as it truly is without the trapping of Augustinian/Greek philosophy.

 

[godrulz]

If God wanted to, could He create a free will being?

He created free moral agents. This is why things are a mess (Lucifer=Satan; Adam fell; Hitler slaughters, etc.).

 

[godrulz]

I picked up on that just from the responses to my limited posts in here. That is why I posted this, what a horrible theology! I can't imagine how you could ever believe that God "doesn't know" something. What kinda god is this?

But if it helps your arminian theology work better then I guess it's tempting to run with it. I mean anything is better than God choosing, electing and predestinating us, right?

Election is corporate, not individual. God does predestine some things, but this does not mean He predestines all things. He is not responsible for heinous evil and people going to hell (we are accountable). Even Calvin called double predestination a 'horrible' doctrine, but he believed it anyway (contrary to God's explicit revelation, character, and ways). God knows all that is knowable. He knows reality as it is. He correctly distinguishes past, present, future, possibilities/contingencies, certainties/actualities.

Pinnock: "Aspects of the future, being unsettled, are not yet wholly known even to God. It does not mean God is ignorant of something He ought to know, but that many things in the future are only possible and not yet actual. Therefore, He knows them correctly as possible and not actual".

This is not a limitation on God's omniscience, but a correct understanding of it.

'As omnipotence is limited by the possible, so omniscience is limited by the knowable....we do not limit omnipotence by denying its power to do impossible or self-contradictory things (like creating a rock too heavy to lift). Neither do we limit omniscience by denying its power to foreknow unknowable things (future free will contingencies)'.

God is not an aloof, unchanging monarch. He is providential, dynamic, relational, responsive, transcendent, and immanent.

 

[godrulz]

God knows everything that is knowable.

BTW, Open theism is not arminianism.

Most feel open theism is a subtype of Arminianism or free will theism as opposed to deterministic Calvinism. It has similarities, but many other differences. I like to call it an alternative, biblical view (mediate between Arm. and Cal.).

 

[godrulz]

God knows everything.

Does God know for sure who will win the 2010 Superbowl trillions of years ago? If He did, then He must control all the players and negate their freedom and self-determination. The future is not there yet to know as a certainty (God would only know aspects of the future as a certainty if He purposed to bring them to pass by His power...e.g. the First and Second Coming of Christ, future judgments, the end of Satan, etc.).