Philetus
New member
Michael,
First, let’s get the stained-glass out of the way! I know why stained-glass was first used. And I know that for the most part it has become mere decoration and camouflage, insulating a church that loves to celebrate its ‘personal relationships” with the resurrected Lord over all creation while ignoring the Christ who says “I am hungry.” The problem with stained-glass in the North American Church at least is that you can’t see through it in either direction.
Yours is a most excellent post. I mean it. And we have far more in common that either of us imagined (or maybe care to admit.) But I’m not ready to throw the baby out with the baptistery just yet. Just because there are many bad marriages in the world, we don’t throw out marriage. Just because there are many, way many, who claim a relationship with God in Christ that bears no semblance to what either of us are describing, doesn’t mean there is no such thing.
I don’t have the ability you have in saying it. That doesn’t mean I don’t have the same passion and express it in action any differently than your posts indicate you do. I spend a lot of time in Haiti. On my first trip there I ran into the same kind of crap you encountered in India. I left vowing to my Master Jesus that if He would show me a different way I would follow it. Three years later, I’m working with 12 young Haitians who are living, not in a mission compound behind stained-glass windows and locked fences with armed guards to protect the professional ‘relationship pushers’ living a life style that puts even the upper middle class to shame, driving around in their air-conditioned SUVs unable to even smell Haiti, but in their mud and cinderblock huts doing the work of the realized and present Kingdom, informing their neighbors of God’s present salvation and demonstrating His rule over their actions. When I go to Haiti now, I go alone because there aren't many who will take the risks and forgo the SUV rides. Just because you haven’t ever see a real relationship with God in Christ that informs relational living in the real world, doesn’t mean they don’t exist.
That is not true. The present reality of the kingdom is all this Open Theist has. Again don’t accuse me of being all future and no present. I don’t know the ‘buddy Christ’ you speak of. The Jesus I follow is out there still doing it! He isn’t easy to keep up with but it is fun.
I appreciate the help in finding new ways to articulate the narrative of the Gospel in the context of the real world … but you ain’t the only one doing it (if you are doing it.) I’m not impressed with your rhetoric any more that you are with mine. I know what it is to face a machine gun and a machete and stand in the gap. Still, my relationship with God in Christ isn’t an occasional short term mission trip either. When not in Haiti I’m on the streets. Literally. It is everyday. Today. Where-ever I am in the world. I’m there announcing and experiencing the kingdom. I leave the convincing to the Holy Spirit. The kingdom is not future … it is here … now. I only hope my actions will be an indication of that reality. But, more importantly I go into the world to see Jesus and to experience Him … not to show him off. I follow him. I don’t take him anywhere. The body of Christ that I am a part of has no pews or stained-glass. We wouldn’t buy them if we could afford them. When we sit together and break bread we do it in the world, and I can assure you, Jesus is present. We are just as much the church as if we had all the trappings of churchianity. We are your younger brother. We are coming home and we are not coming alone. So feed the calf! We are hungry.
Thank you friend for those words of wisdom. But, you have no idea who you are talking to. To you those may be words of truth … to me they are life-style. You have no idea how poor I have become by choice in following Jesus. (Poor in every way, yet, lacking nothing.) The Kingdom is witnessed as much in the world as it is in the church. In fact, if you haven't witnessed the reign of God in the world, you would have a hard time convincing me you have seen it at all. Read the kingdom parables ... look there it is ... and there and there and there. You can hide from the modern world and remain above the mucky-muck and pretend that sin isn’t real. But, from down here in the trenches, a relationship with God that doesn’t include everybody, even the lost and the wretched in the world, is the greatest farce we have to combat! The church that God has placed me in is not invisible, but you can’t see it through your stained-glass windows. To see it you have to leave the sanctuary and your idea-guarded compound. Hiding behind words or a bush in the garden or behind stained-glass in the sanctuary or in a cave in the hills, is all about the same in my book.
Michael, thank you for pushing my buttons and forcing me to think! If the language of relationships gets in the way of the Gospel in the alley, I’ll be the first to abandon it. Right now I have to leave. We are having 'church' at the corner of Main and 6th streets in an hour. I don't have to change clothes ... but even the wretched need a shower.
Blessings and thank you.
Philetus
First, let’s get the stained-glass out of the way! I know why stained-glass was first used. And I know that for the most part it has become mere decoration and camouflage, insulating a church that loves to celebrate its ‘personal relationships” with the resurrected Lord over all creation while ignoring the Christ who says “I am hungry.” The problem with stained-glass in the North American Church at least is that you can’t see through it in either direction.
Yours is a most excellent post. I mean it. And we have far more in common that either of us imagined (or maybe care to admit.) But I’m not ready to throw the baby out with the baptistery just yet. Just because there are many bad marriages in the world, we don’t throw out marriage. Just because there are many, way many, who claim a relationship with God in Christ that bears no semblance to what either of us are describing, doesn’t mean there is no such thing.
I don’t have the ability you have in saying it. That doesn’t mean I don’t have the same passion and express it in action any differently than your posts indicate you do. I spend a lot of time in Haiti. On my first trip there I ran into the same kind of crap you encountered in India. I left vowing to my Master Jesus that if He would show me a different way I would follow it. Three years later, I’m working with 12 young Haitians who are living, not in a mission compound behind stained-glass windows and locked fences with armed guards to protect the professional ‘relationship pushers’ living a life style that puts even the upper middle class to shame, driving around in their air-conditioned SUVs unable to even smell Haiti, but in their mud and cinderblock huts doing the work of the realized and present Kingdom, informing their neighbors of God’s present salvation and demonstrating His rule over their actions. When I go to Haiti now, I go alone because there aren't many who will take the risks and forgo the SUV rides. Just because you haven’t ever see a real relationship with God in Christ that informs relational living in the real world, doesn’t mean they don’t exist.
Seekinganswers: And yet you still put off the new order to the future for you still see God "allowing sin," and because God "allows sin" you can enjoy your "freedom" to relate to God without having to place yourself in the way of those who are in power in this world in order to protect those who have no power at all, just as my dear friends could enjoy their relationship with God (and "share" that with the poor children) without having to ask what to do about the materials they were using for that end.
That is not true. The present reality of the kingdom is all this Open Theist has. Again don’t accuse me of being all future and no present. I don’t know the ‘buddy Christ’ you speak of. The Jesus I follow is out there still doing it! He isn’t easy to keep up with but it is fun.
I appreciate the help in finding new ways to articulate the narrative of the Gospel in the context of the real world … but you ain’t the only one doing it (if you are doing it.) I’m not impressed with your rhetoric any more that you are with mine. I know what it is to face a machine gun and a machete and stand in the gap. Still, my relationship with God in Christ isn’t an occasional short term mission trip either. When not in Haiti I’m on the streets. Literally. It is everyday. Today. Where-ever I am in the world. I’m there announcing and experiencing the kingdom. I leave the convincing to the Holy Spirit. The kingdom is not future … it is here … now. I only hope my actions will be an indication of that reality. But, more importantly I go into the world to see Jesus and to experience Him … not to show him off. I follow him. I don’t take him anywhere. The body of Christ that I am a part of has no pews or stained-glass. We wouldn’t buy them if we could afford them. When we sit together and break bread we do it in the world, and I can assure you, Jesus is present. We are just as much the church as if we had all the trappings of churchianity. We are your younger brother. We are coming home and we are not coming alone. So feed the calf! We are hungry.
Seekinganswers: You can't just "experience Jesus in the wretched of the earth," you must become poor (you must have compassion) with them, and live as though they were the most important in this world (for they really are!!). The Kingdom has come, and there has been a great reversal (not in the future, but now). And that reversal is not witnessed in the world (which continues to live by the present evil age), but it is witnessed among God's people, in the church. A relationship with God outside of the church is no relationship at all, but a farse!
Thank you friend for those words of wisdom. But, you have no idea who you are talking to. To you those may be words of truth … to me they are life-style. You have no idea how poor I have become by choice in following Jesus. (Poor in every way, yet, lacking nothing.) The Kingdom is witnessed as much in the world as it is in the church. In fact, if you haven't witnessed the reign of God in the world, you would have a hard time convincing me you have seen it at all. Read the kingdom parables ... look there it is ... and there and there and there. You can hide from the modern world and remain above the mucky-muck and pretend that sin isn’t real. But, from down here in the trenches, a relationship with God that doesn’t include everybody, even the lost and the wretched in the world, is the greatest farce we have to combat! The church that God has placed me in is not invisible, but you can’t see it through your stained-glass windows. To see it you have to leave the sanctuary and your idea-guarded compound. Hiding behind words or a bush in the garden or behind stained-glass in the sanctuary or in a cave in the hills, is all about the same in my book.
Michael, thank you for pushing my buttons and forcing me to think! If the language of relationships gets in the way of the Gospel in the alley, I’ll be the first to abandon it. Right now I have to leave. We are having 'church' at the corner of Main and 6th streets in an hour. I don't have to change clothes ... but even the wretched need a shower.
Blessings and thank you.
Philetus