ARCHIVE:God repenting and nacham

[GrayPilgrim]

As OVers use the God repenting language as a proof text I see this as illegitimate here's why

To start here is NIDOTTE on nacham--

ni - be sorry, console oneself

pi- relieved

hitp- be sorry have compassion, repent, comfort oneself, be relieved, ease oneself

Okay then we see that ahh repent could be a possible rendering in the Hithpael. Only in Numbers 23:19 is God the subject of the Hithpael of nacham where this is a viable rendering, (not Genesis 6!) and their we see the little particle lo' at the head of the verse stating that it is not consistent with God's character that he should change his mind.

Then what about those passages that speak of God "nacham"ing well that is simple, he feels regret and sorrow for as Ezekiel said:

As I live, declares the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?

 

[geoff]

well said... apart from the typos...

hey, what happened to the beige pilgrim, the offwhite pilgrim, and the almost black pilgrim?

 

[GrayPilgrim]

Originally posted by geoff
well said... apart from the typos...

What typos? , oh if they would only get a Hebrew font on this sight!

hey, what happened to the beige pilgrim, the offwhite pilgrim, and the almost black pilgrim?

I don't know, ask JRR Tolkien, oops I guess we'll have to wait since necromancy is right out!

 

[geoff]

hey, i live in middle earth, so they say (new zealand.. home of LOTR now) - want me to ask gandalf hahaha

 

[Knightowl]

God does not repent

God does not repent

Numbers 23:19
"God is not a man, that He should lie,
Nor a son of man, that He should repent;
Has He said, and will He not do it?
Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?


1 Samuel 15:29
"Also the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind."

 

[1013]

from knightowlGod does not repent

correct. in those situations God does not repent. we could take the simplistic approach and remove these passages from their context of bribing God with sacrifice in numbers or with empty repentence in samuel.

funny thing is I don't have to ignore the context in these passages nor do I have to go far outside the context of exodus 32 and suggest something that has no Biblical precident (moses plays a pretend game with God), but that is precisely what you are doing knightowl.



Gray Pilgrim

I'm going to respond to you here for both this thread and the items mentioned in the illusory thread.

Lucky for you, I have found my lexicon by Holladay.

A Concise Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament: based upon the lexical works of Ludwig Koehler and Walter Baumgartner

Copyright 1988.

niham
nifal - 1. regret: a) have regrets, a change of heart 1 Samuel 15:29; b) niham 'al allow oneself change o heart regarding, relent regarding Ex 32:12.

granted I said that it meant a change in one's mind on page 18 of "illusory free will" but I don't commit the evangelical fallacy of seperating emotions from mental functioning because for some odd reason, some feel that a change in emotions is not a change in mind.

regardless in Ex 32:12, moses was asking for a change in plans and NASB properly translates it that way. There is no way around this. Would you have us believe that moses just wants God to feel bad for what he said he would do and then go ahead and do it while feeling bad about it? That's the impression I get from the short def. you give of the nifal.

In verse 14 it says that God repented (also the nifal) after all and strangely, God does not do what he says that he would do, wipe out the isrealites and start all over. That is strange if God just feels bad about doing what he said he would do because God can't change his plans so you might say.

Is moses special? Frequently in the Bible people prevail upon God to change what they percieve that he intends to do. We have every reason to assume that these people truly believe that God intends to do something and they truly believe that they may prevail upon him to change his plans.

For Balak and Saul, God is not a man that he should be manipulated. For Hezekiah, Amos, Moses, Abraham, and anyone else that loves God and has a relationship with him for whom we do not have explicit niham passages, God is quick to show mercy and relent from what he said he would do.

 

[geoff]

1013,

Feeling sorry is NOT like changing your mind in the sense of changing your plan. That contradiction you made of yourself in you last post makes your post make no sense...

 

[1013]

geoff,

no.

I'm going to wait for gp's or knightowl's response

 

[Arminian]

Interesting topic. From Numbers 14:

Then the glory of the Lord appeared at the Tent of Meeting to all the Israelites. 11 The Lord said to Moses, "How long will these people treat me with contempt? How long will they refuse to believe in me, in spite of all the miraculous signs I have performed among them? 12 I will strike them down with a plague and destroy them, but I will make you into a nation greater and stronger than they."
13 Moses said to the Lord , "Then the Egyptians will hear about it! By your power you brought these people up from among them. 14 And they will tell the inhabitants of this land about it. They have already heard that you, O Lord , are with these people and that you, O Lord , have been seen face to face, that your cloud stays over them, and that you go before them in a pillar of cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night. 15 If you put these people to death all at one time, the nations who have heard this report about you will say, 16 'The Lord was not able to bring these people into the land he promised them on oath; so he slaughtered them in the desert.'
17 "Now may the Lord's strength be displayed, just as you have declared: 18 'The Lord is slow to anger, abounding in love and forgiving sin and rebellion. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation.' 19 In accordance with your great love, forgive the sin of these people, just as you have pardoned them from the time they left Egypt until now."
20 The Lord replied, "I have forgiven them, as you asked. "

 

[1013]

good stuff arminian.

Of coarse I haven't looked closely but niham doesn't seem to be in this passage.

but that is of no consequence because God is clearly changing his plans in these passages.

Futhermore, we have every reason to believe that Moses thinks God intends to do something that moses tries to persuade him not to do. And Moses succeeds

 

[geoff]

Ov'ers tend to use this passage to reinforce their [mis]understanding of nacham, by trying to prove that God DOES change his mind here... or actually, that God's limited foreknowledge is revealed here.

Its another thread however, and is easily disproved, for example, if they are right, then God is taught something that he didnt know by Moses, who DID know... which is complete barf material

 

[Knightowl]

in those situations God does not repent.

The language used in these passages is broader in nature.

we could take the simplistic approach and remove these passages from their context of bribing God with sacrifice in numbers or with empty repentence in samuel.

What is simplistic is your characterization of contrary views rooted in the clear meaning of these passages. God does not say "I will not repent." He says, "I do not repent." Big difference.

funny thing is I don't have to ignore the context in these passages...

No, just the language of these passages.

...nor do I have to go far outside the context of exodus 32 and suggest something that has no Biblical precedent (moses plays a pretend game with God), but that is precisely what you are doing knightowl.

That is your simplistic charactization of that passage, not mine.

 

[1013]

geoff raised a point that should be addressed.

Did Moses teach God something? No. God could have proceeded with the plan he described and have answered all of Moses objections. What does God care about how the eqyptians feel? If God wiped the jews out and started over with moses, he would've still been faithful to the promise to Abraham, and so on.

Moses changed God's mind because Moses had a special relationship with God and that was not one of manipulation but love.

both of you have a grand tendancy to ignore significant arguments.

Neither of you offered any decent understanding of exodus 32 nor numbers 14.

My paradigm can handle all of the passages brought up so far. your's can't.

God does not say "I will not repent." He says, "I do not repent." Big difference.

He says "I am not a man that I should repent." God doesn't have to change his mind if he doesn't want to. He is not a man, he is not weak like a man that he should cave in to bribery and persistent pestering. He is not capricious that if you ask him one moment, he'll say something different than he would at a later moment. All of that was taking place And this was said to someone who was trying to manipulate God. It was said to someone in particular, period. You would have us believe that none of this is important in terms of what effects God.

again in typical maelstrom fashion, you advance an argument ignoring the damaging things that have been said about your view. Moses believed that God could change his mind and there is no reasonable way to escape that. You're old answer demonstrates that you believe the text to have a maleability that it doesn't.

Both Moses and Balak were trying to change God's mind, except Moses was doing so far more explicitely. He demanded that God should turn from his anger and relent and all with the idea of getting God to do other than what he said he would do. Moses and balak got different results.


Furthermore, what's to prevent me from from taking numbers 23:19 like you guys would other niham passages? As Gray Pilgrim has stated, it is a hitpael form and it could mean to be sorry, have compassion, repent, comfort oneself, be relieved, ease oneself.

maybe God is just saying that he won't feel bad about his decision not to curse the israelites. I don't take it that way, but that is no different than you folks would suggest with other niham passages.

 

[geoff]

My paradigm can handle all of the passages brought up so far. your's can't.

Actually, your paradigm says Moses was able to convince God that God was wrong... That God didnt know God would look foolish, etc, etc.

That really does NOT sound like handling the passages at all. In fact, its proof you dont.

 

[GrayPilgrim]

1013 please show which Hebrew word you are translationg as should. Silly me I can't seem to find it.

 

[Arminian]

13:

Of coarse I haven't looked closely but niham doesn't seem to be in this passage.

but that is of no consequence because God is clearly changing his plans in these passages.

I agree. He said "I will," but then he didn't. Philosophical catagories aside, God Changed his mind.

 

[geoff]

Only if you want the passage to cause the problems theologically that I have already mentioned.

That doesnt even count for the fact that this passage can be satisfactory explained with out the errors arising from the assumption you are making

 

[Arminian]

From the New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology & Exegesis vol.3

(nhm), ni. be sorry, console oneself; pi. releaved (hapleg.); hitp. be sorry, have compassion, repent, confort oneself, be passion (hapleg.)...

2. The meaning of be sorry, repent, change one's mind. (a) the word is used to express two apparently contrasing sentiments in 1 Sam 15, where God says, "I am greived (nhm) that I made Saul king" (v. 11; cf v. 35), but where Samuel aso announces that "the Glory of Isreal does not lie or change his mind (nhm), for he is not a man, that he should change his mind (nhm)" (29). The explanation seems to be that God does not capriciously change his intentions or ways of acting, It is the change in Saul's behaviour that leads to this expression of regret. The refrence is notable as being one of the rare occasions when God is said to repent or change his mind concerning something intended to be good (cf. Gen 6:6)

(b) In many cases the Lord's "changing" of his mind is a gracious response to human factors. Thus in Jeremiah we often read that repentance on the part of the people (usually swb, but nhm in Jer 8:6 and 31:19) will make it possible of God to repent, change his mind (nhm) 18:8, 10; 20:16; 26:3, 13 19; cf. 42:10. Note God's response to Amos's pleas on behalf of Isreal (Amos 7:3, 6).

 

[Arminian]

Geoff:

Only if you want the passage to cause the problems theologically that I have already mentioned.

I'm not concered with the ends. I'm concerned with the means.

 

[1013]

Gray Pilgrim, every translation I looked at including the NASB translates it that way and according to my Hebrew Syntax by Ron Williams, this is a legitimate way to take the imperfect. It is the obligative of the imperfect.

God is not a man that he is obligated to change his plans.




as always geoff does not understand open theism nor does he care to. John Sanders explicitly denied the view geoff just outlined in The God who risks. With openness, it is as I have already written. God could have done as he threatened and remained true to his promises and character.