ARCHIVE:God is NOT an OV'er (He said so)

drdeutsch

New member
I'm almost always the slowest one. I write really slow and sloppy... there's almost always a comment on my paper about the handwriting. However, I usually have one of the higher grades in the class, too.

Jaltus, I've got a busy week. Let me get my materials together and I'll post asap. You could, however, look at my previous post about "boule" and "thelema" and Cyrus. It's on page 44 of this thread.

God bless,
Dr. Deutsch
 
Last edited:

jobeth

Member
Arminian:
Sorry for not responding sooner. I've been sick.
but not all situations are turned to good.
I disagree. In fact I KNOW that all things actually facilitate good.

Isn't it true, according to Rom 8:28, that all who love the Lord know that to be true? So how come you don't know that?
 

drdeutsch

New member
Jaltus,

First, about Boule and Thelema, I stand by my opinion that God's counsel, Boule, is never thwarted. God clearly states in Is 46 "My counsel (LXX Boule) shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure (LXX Boule)." Thus, I must believe that God's counsel is never thwarted. If it were, then God was disingenuous in Is 46. As for the Pharisees, it says they "rejected" it "for themselves." That would be the opposite of not accepting it, not a synonym to thwarting it.

As for Cyrus, I'm still a little undecided. You put up some excellent arguments. Although Cyrus isn't a "believer" in the sense that we would think of it, or rather, He isn't one of "God's people," He is called a "messiah" in Is 45 (God's Anointed), and Cyrus certainly sounds like a believer in Ezra 1:2.

I'm not so sure that all the "details" given of Cyrus make it so specific however. It's all very general: We don't get the names of the lands he is to conquer, kings he is to conquer, and not a lot of specific information about what he is to do. In Is 41:2, for instance, everything, which is very general, is written in the past tense, although the Hebrew was written in the "prophetic perfect": It refers to future events. This, no doubt, makes it seem much more definite than it actually is.

As for his name, Cyrus (Actually, in Persian it would have been Kurash), I don't feel it is necessary to say that God would have renamed him, only that God manipulated events (to whatever extent necessary) to ensure that his name would be Cyrus. Jews, however, were not the only ones with more than one name: Look at the Midian Jethro/Reuel.

It is God's sovereign right to control us when He wants to. In fact, Is 10 shows us that God can control our actions when necessary to fulfill His counsel, without taking away our responsibility for those actions: "I will commission him against the people of My wrath... although that is not what he intends, nor what his heart plans, but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off not a few nations... therefore, when the Lord has performed all His work [. . .] He will say 'I will punish the fruit of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria and the glory of his haughty looks."

I know you will say, "But Cyrus acknowledge the Lord God in Ezra 1:2!" But that's not what I'm arguing. I'm saying that it is God's sovereing right, when He wants to, to override our freewill in order to accomplish His will or counsel. This by no means implies that He does it exhaustively or all the time.

The determinist viewpoint has blinded us with the notion that prophecy is simply pre-written history. Given the extent to which Scriptural prophecy is rewritten or changed, this simply can't be true. An example would be the prophecy that Nebuchadnezzar would conquer Tyre and Egypt. Ezekial 26:1-14 clearly states that Nebuchadnezzar will conquer Tyre (with quite a few details) and that Tyre will be covered by the sea (v. 3 "as the sea causes its waves to come up" v. 5 "It shall be a place for spreading nets in the midst of the sea, for I have spoken.") History quite clearly shows that this didn't happen, and many historians argue that Nebuchadnezzar never actually defeated Tyre - I really don't want to argue that. However, after Nebuchadnezzar didn't "receive wages from Tyre," God told Him that He would give him Egypt. This never happened either, yet it was prophecied. Prophecy that never happened.

God bless,
Dr. Deutsch
 
Last edited:

Jaltus

New member
To be honest, I know nothing about Nebby (I am not even going to try to spell his name), so I cannot argue there.

I think you are drawing to distinct a line between "rejecting" and "thwarting." If I planned to marry someone, and asked her to marry me, would not her rejection of my proposal thwart my plan? Rejecting a plan always thwarts said plan. There really is no other way to look at it.

Of course, your argument from the LXX only works if you think that the LXX is an inspired translation, which is a dubious claim.
 

Jaltus

New member
Oh, I'll try to look more into the Cyrus issue tomorrow. I will be gone from Friday to Sunday, though. I have a wedding to go to this weekend.
 

geoff

New member
The question I have is, that if God can thwart peoples free choice 'sometimes' whats to stop him thwarting it at 'any time'?

there isnt, and its quite clear that it is God who prevents Human beings from relating to Himself personally (see the flaming sword and Cherubim in Gen 3).

No one (except for the few eccentrics) would argue that human beings can not do anything they want to do. The one thing they CAN NOT do is choose to relate to God, because this is prevented by God. This is God's 'will'. He put it in place, He maintains it.

Therefore AT ALL times, no human being can choose to relate to God. If God's will was able to be thwarted, then this would not be true.
 

drdeutsch

New member
Jaltus,

Although the LXX is not an inspired translation, I still feel it is quite reliable (sans Apocrypha), because the usage of Boule (and other words) is quite consistent with NT usage.
I really don't know enough about Hebrew to draw a conclusion from the original OT. I do, however, stand by my belief.

As far as "Nebby" (A cute name, don't you think?) is concerned, that is only one instance of Scriptural prophecy being rewritten or changed. It's probably one of the most obvious, however.

Take your time. I'm pretty busy this week and weekend, and school starts again on Sep. 4, so I'm not sure how much my online time will be cut down by that. I should have a pretty full load this semester.

God bless,
Dr. Deutsch
 

1013

Post Modern Fundamentalist
Of course, your argument from the LXX only works if you think that the LXX is an inspired translation, which is a dubious claim.

quotes from the LXX is used more often than closer hebrew translations in the NT even when the two are significantly different in meaning.
 

drdeutsch

New member
bump. Still waiting for Jaltus.

Would it be possible to archive this thread? I'm not sure how much time I will be able to devote to it during the school year. I'm sure Jaltus and others will be quite busy.

God bless,
Dr. Deutsch
 
Y

Yxboom

Guest
Ba-Bump because it has been months and Jaltus still hasn't responded.
 

drdeutsch

New member
Unfortunately, he's on Christmas vacation right now and won't be back for about another week.
I think we all left issues that we want to say more about...

I'm still quite adamant about the Cyrus issue. My interpretation works.
Dr. Deutsch
 
Y

Yxboom

Guest
I am aware that he said he wont be back until early Janurary. I was just reminded of this thread from a recent OV discussion.
 

Jaltus

New member
1013,

I'll get back into this thread this week. I am looking into Cyrus now.

However, you could respond to my rebuttal of your idea of BOULH:

You said:
First, about Boule and Thelema, I stand by my opinion that God's counsel, Boule, is never thwarted. God clearly states in Is 46 "My counsel (LXX Boule) shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure (LXX Boule)." Thus, I must believe that God's counsel is never thwarted. If it were, then God was disingenuous in Is 46. As for the Pharisees, it says they "rejected" it "for themselves." That would be the opposite of not accepting it, not a synonym to thwarting it.
And I responded with:
I think you are drawing to distinct a line between "rejecting" and "thwarting." If I planned to marry someone, and asked her to marry me, would not her rejection of my proposal thwart my plan? Rejecting a plan always thwarts said plan. There really is no other way to look at it.
 
Top