ARCHIVE:God is NOT an OV'er (He said so)
- Thread starter geoff
- Start date
Evangelion
New member
Yes, I think you're right on that one Geoff. :up: But don't ask me to agree with you again, please!!! 
Jaltus - where are you flying to? Hope you have a safe trip, and an enjoyable holiday/whatever. :up:
Jaltus - where are you flying to? Hope you have a safe trip, and an enjoyable holiday/whatever. :up:
I think one of the basic problems people have is that theY try and measure God with thier own tape measure as it were.
and not with Gods.
God created man,not man himself.
God KNOWS man back to front.top to bottom,inside out,side to side,and the very thoughts and intensions of his heart.
Every hair on his head is numbered by God.
and above all else He KNOWS the very NATURE of him.
God also KNOWS Himself!
and it could be said or likened in away as knowing Himself even as He knows man.
kNOWING BOTH He acts accordingly
Andtherefore can know the end from the beginning.
It was God who "PLANTED" the garden east of eden.
and therefore KNOWS how the garden will 'grow'
So likewise He knows how and what men will do.
HE ALSO KNOWS WHAT HE WILL DO and that His Word "will NOT return unto Him void(as mans often will not)But WILL accomplish that wherein He sent it"
"THAT THE ARM OF FLESH WILL FAIL"
That ADAM AND EVE FOUND TO THIER AND OUR COST.
But God is faithfull who promised.
He overrides NOBODY nor does He force anyone to do His willbut works WITH mans will wether they are for Him or against Him.
If against Him it is to thier hurt.If For Him to thier eternal joy.
Last edited:
Evangelion
New member
Look, it was an accident, OK!? It won't happen again.
Hopefully.
It won't happen again.Hopefully.
jobeth
Member
Geoff:
You disagree? Okay, fine.
We understand that Jaltus and Evangelion and I have all failed to accurately portray your view. So the ball's back in your court.
Warning: If you quit, we will by no means assume that we are dense. Rather, we will all assume that your view is not coherent.
Here's the ball:
By what means does God exhaustively know the future?
You disagree? Okay, fine.
We understand that Jaltus and Evangelion and I have all failed to accurately portray your view. So the ball's back in your court.
Warning: If you quit, we will by no means assume that we are dense. Rather, we will all assume that your view is not coherent.
Here's the ball:
By what means does God exhaustively know the future?
jobeth
Member
1013:
Please compare the verses that use "before the foundation of the world" and "from (or since) the foundation of the world".
Before the Foundation of the World (Pro Katabole Kosmos)
John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
1 Peter 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
From the Foundation of the World (Apo Katabole Kosmos)
Matt 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
Matt 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Luke 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Other "time" passages to notice:
Before the ages of time (Pro chronos aionios)
II Tim 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
From the Beginning (Ap Arche)
II Thess 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
God Predetermined Before the Ages (Proorisen Theos Apo To Aionios)
I Cor 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
Predestinated Us For Adoption (Proorisas Hemas Eis Huiothesian )
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
1013:
I believe that God had a complete plan before He created the world AND that He is now presently bringing that plan to pass AND that He knows His plan will not fail BECAUSE He knows that He will succeed SINCE He knows that NOTHING can thwart His will or prevent Him from causing all things to occur exactly as He wishes them to occur.
In my opinion, God's certainty of future events is not a result of His foreknowledge of inevitability, (as though our present reality is all past history for God), but RATHER His Foreknowledge is a result of His certainty that He is able to cause whatever He wishes.
And I think you more ore less agree with me.
Please compare the verses that use "before the foundation of the world" and "from (or since) the foundation of the world".
Before the Foundation of the World (Pro Katabole Kosmos)
John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
1 Peter 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
From the Foundation of the World (Apo Katabole Kosmos)
Matt 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
Matt 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Luke 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Other "time" passages to notice:
Before the ages of time (Pro chronos aionios)
II Tim 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
From the Beginning (Ap Arche)
II Thess 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
God Predetermined Before the Ages (Proorisen Theos Apo To Aionios)
I Cor 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
Predestinated Us For Adoption (Proorisas Hemas Eis Huiothesian )
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
1013:
I believe that God had a complete plan before He created the world AND that He is now presently bringing that plan to pass AND that He knows His plan will not fail BECAUSE He knows that He will succeed SINCE He knows that NOTHING can thwart His will or prevent Him from causing all things to occur exactly as He wishes them to occur.
In my opinion, God's certainty of future events is not a result of His foreknowledge of inevitability, (as though our present reality is all past history for God), but RATHER His Foreknowledge is a result of His certainty that He is able to cause whatever He wishes.
And I think you more ore less agree with me.
Last edited:
1013
Post Modern Fundamentalist
None of the verses you posted implys this. They show that before the foundation of the earth, God planed to have a relationship with the church or that he planed to have a special role for the Son. That is all that is necessary for many of these verses and that does not require a complete plan.
As for the comparison between "from the foundation" and "before the foundation," my contention concerning rev, 13:8 stands firmly as surely as no martyrs were slain before the fall of man.
clearly things that have gone on "from the foundation of the earth are things that have been going on as early as the creation or shortly after the fall and ever since. As those who have insisted that the lamb slain from the foundation is a metaphore for a plan for the sacrifice of the Son, this very much lends itself to the open view. Furthermore, it is evidence of the open view, because surely it would've been clearer for rev to say that the lamb was slain before the foundation had it been the case that God knew of it then.
As for the special role for the Son that I mentioned, that verses such as 1 Pet 20 mention, that role was not necessarily the role of redeemer. The incarnation was not primarily for the purpose of the atonement of sins, but since there was sin, that was added to the role. The incarnation was for the purpose of increasing the intimacy of God with his people, and so it is that that the church is the bride of Christ. That would've happened regardless of whether sin entered the world or not.
regarding your last point that God's foreknowledge is based on what he causes? Not entirely. God knows not only the future as he causes and plans it, but also the future as we set ourselves upon through our maturing or hardening of our hearts. Since neither of those are always the case, sometimes there is no fact of the matter. But I would agree that God's foreknowledge is based upon what in the present will necessarily cause certain things to pass in the future.
geoff
New member
Only if you ignore the FACT that God says he knows the NAMES.. and that He has a DEFINATE PLAN for individuals.
So, any particular verse might not state this implicitly, but taken in CONTEXT there is no other conclusion.
It doesnt make any difference if they arent.
You really are ripe.
The PURPOSE of the incarnation... was to put right ALL THAT WAS WRONG WITH THE WORLD. Not to increase intimacy with God. Sheesh. Did Adam NEED increased intimacy with God? No. That is completely and utterly false and unsubstantiatable. There is absolutely No way in heaven or on earth that 'increased intimacy' with God was the purpose of the Messiah.
"increased intimacy' DOES occur, but ONLY because of the alienation from God which is SIN and the result of Adams action in Eden.
There is NO WAY the incarnation would have been, or could have been required according to Scripture, had there been no fall.
jobeth
Member
Geoff:
Your answer is not adequate to explain the cause of God's Foreknowledge.
For you to say:
The reason I believe that God has exhaustive knowledge of the future is because God is Omniscient,
Would be like saying:
The reason I believe that God is Lord of Both Heaven and Earth is because God is Sovereign.
In other words, to say that God is LORD OF ALL because He is Sovereign is to say that the reason God is Sovereign is because He is Sovereign.
In the same way, for you to say that God has EDF because He is Omniscient is the same as saying the reason God is Omniscient is because He is Omniscient. You are only re-stating your original claim, rather than explaining or giving evidence for it. Therefore, you have not done what I asked you to do.
So now I have another question. Are you refusing to grant my request because you cannot explain it or because you are cruel?
Your answer is not adequate to explain the cause of God's Foreknowledge.
For you to say:
The reason I believe that God has exhaustive knowledge of the future is because God is Omniscient,
Would be like saying:
The reason I believe that God is Lord of Both Heaven and Earth is because God is Sovereign.
In other words, to say that God is LORD OF ALL because He is Sovereign is to say that the reason God is Sovereign is because He is Sovereign.
In the same way, for you to say that God has EDF because He is Omniscient is the same as saying the reason God is Omniscient is because He is Omniscient. You are only re-stating your original claim, rather than explaining or giving evidence for it. Therefore, you have not done what I asked you to do.
So now I have another question. Are you refusing to grant my request because you cannot explain it or because you are cruel?
jobeth
Member
1013:
Are the scriptures so vague on these issues, that we are free to believe whatever we want to believe? Well, that's great news!Thank you very much.
I want to believe that God has a definite plan, that He had that plan even before He created this world, and that He is even now carrying out that plan, in spite of any opposition He may have.
And, thanks to the OV doctrine, we can all believe willy-nilly whatever we want and then insist that those who disagree with us have no basis whatsoever for disagreeing with us.
I love it. You can be as dogmatic in your convictions as you like, as long as you deny anyone else the right to be dogmatic in their convictions.
But wait a minute. Just because your convictions have no basis, does that mean that my convictions are baseless, too?
Well, never mind. Don't bother to answer. Who needs answers, anyway? Let's just discuss what we believe, and enjoy and flatter ourselves in our diversity of beliefs, without worrying about who's "right" and who's "wrong". Won't that be fun?
Does God plan on having a World to Come, after this one is destroyed by fire? What are your thoughts?
Matt 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Mark 10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
Luke 18:30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.
Heb 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Are the scriptures so vague on these issues, that we are free to believe whatever we want to believe? Well, that's great news!Thank you very much.
I want to believe that God has a definite plan, that He had that plan even before He created this world, and that He is even now carrying out that plan, in spite of any opposition He may have.
And, thanks to the OV doctrine, we can all believe willy-nilly whatever we want and then insist that those who disagree with us have no basis whatsoever for disagreeing with us.
I love it. You can be as dogmatic in your convictions as you like, as long as you deny anyone else the right to be dogmatic in their convictions.
But wait a minute. Just because your convictions have no basis, does that mean that my convictions are baseless, too?
Well, never mind. Don't bother to answer. Who needs answers, anyway? Let's just discuss what we believe, and enjoy and flatter ourselves in our diversity of beliefs, without worrying about who's "right" and who's "wrong". Won't that be fun?
Does God plan on having a World to Come, after this one is destroyed by fire? What are your thoughts?
Matt 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Mark 10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
Luke 18:30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.
Heb 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
geoff
New member
JoBeth,
God has Divine Foreknowledge because he is Omniscient, He is Omniscient because He is God, and creator, and because He says so.
I give an obtuse answer because you already know the answer and I am not going to play your little mind and word games. If thats cruel, so be it.
1013,
Thats the easy way out.
God has Divine Foreknowledge because he is Omniscient, He is Omniscient because He is God, and creator, and because He says so.
I give an obtuse answer because you already know the answer and I am not going to play your little mind and word games. If thats cruel, so be it.
1013,
Thats the easy way out.
jobeth
Member
geoff:
How can I believe you? You claim to believe that God is Omniscient, but how do I know you mean it?
After all, you claim to believe that God is Creator, but I happen to know that you don't believe that at all. In fact, you believe that there exists things that God did not create. (Uncreated things)
So how can I know that you don't have some unique definition of "Omniscience" that limits its scope, in the same way you limit the definition of "Creator of All things?
In fact, you contradict the scripture (Col 1:16) which says "For by him were all things created".
I do not play word games. But you do!
How can I believe you? You claim to believe that God is Omniscient, but how do I know you mean it?
After all, you claim to believe that God is Creator, but I happen to know that you don't believe that at all. In fact, you believe that there exists things that God did not create. (Uncreated things)
So how can I know that you don't have some unique definition of "Omniscience" that limits its scope, in the same way you limit the definition of "Creator of All things?
In fact, you contradict the scripture (Col 1:16) which says "For by him were all things created".
I do not play word games. But you do!
geoff
New member
Jobeth,
Quite frankly, I dont care.
If you dont want to believe me, its not my problem. If you cant get your head around the idea that there are some things that exist which are not directly created (although they exist because something else was created), it aint my problem. Comprendez?
Quite frankly, I dont care.
If you dont want to believe me, its not my problem. If you cant get your head around the idea that there are some things that exist which are not directly created (although they exist because something else was created), it aint my problem. Comprendez?
Jobeth,
Uncreated things are, by definition, not created. Therefore, God could not have created them. After all, God did not create Himself, did He?
This is going to be a repeat performance of an argument we already had before. Geoff is right in saying that you are just trying to play word games. Considering you do not believe in the existence of sin, you are not exactly one to be pointing the "heresy" finger.
1013,
geoff has a very valid point.
Please show from scripture where it specifically says that the purpose of Christ was not to defeat sin but to "increase intimacy" with God.
If intimacy was all that mattered, God had that in Eden when He walked with Adam and Eve. There would be no need for Christ for man walked and talked with God.
EDIT: spelling
Uncreated things are, by definition, not created. Therefore, God could not have created them. After all, God did not create Himself, did He?
This is going to be a repeat performance of an argument we already had before. Geoff is right in saying that you are just trying to play word games. Considering you do not believe in the existence of sin, you are not exactly one to be pointing the "heresy" finger.
1013,
geoff has a very valid point.
1013,
Please show from scripture where it specifically says that the purpose of Christ was not to defeat sin but to "increase intimacy" with God.
If intimacy was all that mattered, God had that in Eden when He walked with Adam and Eve. There would be no need for Christ for man walked and talked with God.
EDIT: spelling
Last edited:
If I might 'butt' in?
I am not speaking for geof.
But you raised a point that is worth expanding on.
Our understanding on any point of truth has to deepen broaden and we must also know the heights of it.
The scrip[tures and therfore God has delcared Himself omniscient.
We should beleiev God when He says it and if we study the scriptures we can see and gain some understanding so that our faith is not on 'thin air'
But even when we are fully persuaded of it.
That does not meen that our understanding cannot be deeppened.
Nor does it not meen that when our understanding is deepened we do not come to understand how broad that is or encompassing.
Nor allembracing it is.
That comes with prayer,obedience,and study and a willingness to be LED.
NOW if a child of God is led by the Holy Spirit to a knowledge of the truth.then He will have the SAME understanding fundamentally as onother child of God so led.
If a mature christian has a deeper understanding the greater includes the lesser.
so both are one in thier understanding.
and each will know it.
1013
Post Modern Fundamentalist
I don't know that this is any easier to demonstrate than it is to argue any version of the trinity from the scriptures because I wouldn't pretend that this obvious or explicit.
part of the evidence comes from open theism itself. Sin was not necessary to his creation nor his plan. The incarnation was. The Son does serve two roles. He is the bridegroom of the church and he is the reedemer. Now noone here has shown that the role of redeemer prior to the fall was planed and for that reason why assume it? Of course the New testament is filled centered around the role of Christ as redeemer and why shouldn't it be as that is extemely significant given that this is a world of sin, but that does not mean that it had to be that way. So the other role as bridegroom, friend, brother, etc... is not dependent upon sin. Sin gets in the way of all this thus the role of redeemer becomes necessary. But that role is dependent upon the role of Christ as bridegroom, not vice versa. Get rid of that role and the role of redeemer might as well not happen.
Now consider these scriptures some of which Jobeth posted herself
so before the foundation of the world, God choose that those who would be in Christ would be holy and without blame. Is a former past of sin necessary to any of these things? of course not. We (meaning mankind) didn't have to sin and be redeemed to be holy and blameless. God created us that way and had we not sinned we would've stayed that way thus before the fall, man was worthy to be "in Christ." So Christ as redeemer is not necessary here, but it is necessary if we are to be in Christ.
Now consider
Here wrapped in an explanation of Christ as reedemer we see that he was chosen/foreknown/foreordained before creation. But it doesn't say that he was chosen for this. We see that this role was performed by the chosen one, chosen but [in the translator's words] he was revealed in these last times for the sakes of sinners. It doesn't say that he was chosen for this role but he, the chosen one fullfilled this role.
So we see that Christ was part of God's plan before the world and the church holy and blameless in Christ was his plan.
Here again we do not see redemption as necessary to God's plan. Interestingly, had the rulers known of this wisdom, they would not have crucified Christ. So the sacrifice appears not to be included in the plan of what God has prepared for us who today are the redeemed.
perhaps that was the Son who walked with them. Maybe that was all the manifestation that was necessary and the incarnation and immaculate conception istself also wasn't necessary.
But the incarnation as we know it does go beyond this walking in the Garden as Jesus as he grew and developed as a human and shared in our creaturely experience vividly. I like to think that Christ would've entered into the world much in the way that He did.