ARCHIVE: God and the fire in Colorado

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cirisme

Guest
Do you think that the OT prophets, specifically Moses and Samuel, were actually speaking for YHWH and accurately communicating his desire and intent when they issued a "thus saith the Lord" type statement?
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I'll bite: yes. Trust me, zakath, I've heard EVERYTHING. BTW, how was your trip to the Chesapeake?
 
Zakath

Zakath

Resident Atheist
Originally posted by cirisme
BTW, how was your trip to the Chesapeake?
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It was very nice and relaxing, thanks. :)

I'll bite: yes. Trust me, zakath, I've heard EVERYTHING.
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So I'll probably not trot out anything you haven't heard, but bear in mind that these threads have many readers who don't post, so let's view it as educating them... :)

If you agree that in the following reference Samuel is speaking for YHWH,
Samuel said to Saul, "I am the one the Lord sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the Lord . This is what the Lord Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.' " - I Samuel 15:1-3
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then YHWH commands the slaughter of children and infants.

It is interesting to note that the verb translated as "destroy" is "charam" which describes sacrificing something to a deity by destroying (killing, burning, etc) it. In essence, not only is YHWH calling for the butchering of children and infants, he is, in effect, requiring human sacrifice.

Comments?
 
Zakath

Zakath

Resident Atheist
I scrolled back over the posts here and do you realize that not a single religionist has even attempted to answer two of the original 3 questions about the Colorado fire...

Here are the two that remain unanswered again:

  • 2. Have you/your church prayed for the fire to stop?

    3. Why do you think it hasn't?

C'mon folks, you can do better than this!
 
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cirisme

Guest
Comments?
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Just one...

It is interesting to note that the verb translated as "destroy" is "charam" which describes sacrificing something to a deity by destroying (killing, burning, etc) it. In essence, not only is YHWH calling for the butchering of children and infants, he is, in effect, requiring human sacrifice.
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The word charam means "devoted" or "under the ban." The spoils they took were "devoted" to God, whereas "under the ban" would be used in reference to executing someone for their sins. So, the spoils were devoted to God whereas the people were "under the ban." Leviticus 27:28, 27:29

Hope that clears things up... :)
 
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Pilgrimagain

Guest
my church has not prayed for the fire to stop though we have prayed for those hurt by the fire.

Again, I have to say that we don't ask the same questions you do, instead we ask, "as people of faith, what will our response be?"
 
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cirisme

Guest
LOL, ev!

Actually, the governor or fire-chief kept the fighters from fighting until just recently, for safety concerns. The fire has been blowing on itself, so it has been relatively safe. Incredibly, not a single person(to my knowledge) has died in this fire. Incredibly positive.. :UP:
 
Zakath

Zakath

Resident Atheist
Originally posted by cirisme


The word charam means "devoted" or "under the ban." The spoils they took were "devoted" to God, whereas "under the ban" would be used in reference to executing someone for their sins. So, the spoils were devoted to God whereas the people were "under the ban." Leviticus 27:28, 27:29

Hope that clears things up... :)
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Not really, cherry picking a meaning to suit you while ignoring context doesn't serve your argument well. Here's the entire entry from Strongs to demonstrate my point:
02763 charam {khaw-ram'}

a primitive root; TWOT - 744,745; v

AV - destroy 34, utterly 10, devote 2, accursed 1, consecrate 1,
forfeited 1, flat nose 1, utterly to make away 1, slay 1; 52

1) to ban, devote, destroy utterly, completely destroy, dedicate for
destruction, exterminate
1a) (Hiphil)

1a1) to prohibit (for common use), ban
1a2) to consecrate, devote, dedicate for destruction
1a3) to exterminate, completely destroy
1b) (Hophal)
1b1) to be put under the ban, be devoted to destruction
1b2) to be devoted, be forfeited
1b3) to be completely destroyed
2) to split, slit, mutilate (a part of the body)
2a) (Qal) to mutilate
2b) (Hiphil) to divide
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The spoils were devoted to be destroyed, not stored up somewhere. That is the point of the little incident following this story where Samuel, in YHWH's name, removes the kingship from Saul's house because Saul did not destroy everything as he was commanded.
 
Zakath

Zakath

Resident Atheist
Originally posted by cirisme


Exactly how does this disagree with my point?
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The point is that YHWH considered the human children and infants as sacrifices dedicated to destruction along with the animals and goods.

That says volumes about the character of YHWH.
 
Zakath

Zakath

Resident Atheist
Originally posted by cirisme
And you say I cherry pick definitions!
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And here I thought you were going to be able to refute my point...

Are you claiming that Saul got it correct by not killing everything and Samuel got it wrong? If that's true, then why did YHWH remove the kingship from Saul for disobedience?
 
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cirisme

Guest
Are you claiming that Saul got it correct by not killing everything and Samuel got it wrong? If that's true, then why did YHWH remove the kingship from Saul for disobedience?
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No, I'm claiming that you're a hypocrite. You say something, I provide a definition to prove that something wrong. You claim I picked a paticular definition because I like it, and you go on and do the very same thing you accuse me of...

The point is that YHWH considered the human children and infants as sacrifices dedicated to destruction along with the animals and goods.
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I agree with "dedicated to destruction" but I don't see anything in the text or definition that would indicate "sacrifice."

:)
 
Zakath

Zakath

Resident Atheist
cirisme,

Ad hominmen arguments don't go very far to refute my point.

I agree with "dedicated to destruction" but I don't see anything in the text or definition that would indicate "sacrifice."
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I think you're being to narrow in your use of the word. You've probably read the Christian scriptures where believers are told to present themselves as "living sacrifices". Jews and Christians both provide "sacrifice of praise" with their words. Why don't you think that obeying a divine order to utterly destroy something or someone could be classifiable as a sacrifice? Wasn't that the point of the ritual slaughters and offerings of blood and burnt flesh in Israel? Those were sacrifices as well. All the authors have done is provide a situation where human victims were used instead of animals.

Would a definition of "sacrifice" help? Here you go...
Sacrifice - noun

1. The act of offering something to a deity in propitiation or homage, especially the ritual slaughter of an animal or a person.

2. A victim offered in this way.

from "he American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition"
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It appears that "sacrifices" describe the victims of Saul's activity very well.
 
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Nathon Detroit

Nathon Detroit

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Guys... let me tell ya it's orange outside!

I live in a S.W. suburb of Denver called Lakewood which is north of the fire by 20 miles or so. But yesterday and today have been awful. The smell of smoke is thick and your eyes are burning and itchy from the invisible ash and smoke. Sometimes you can see ash falling like snow, I even have burned pine needles falling in my back yard!
 
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