ARCHIVE - geoff's colossal contradiction (subtitled) HIS CONVERSION TO OPEN THEISM!
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geoff
New member
Reading through this whole passage you see the force of it is NOT that you are now sinless, but that you have been set free and are expected to sin LESS.
Rom 6:15 What then? Should we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?
obviously it is who you SUBMIT too, freely, NOT that you are NOW SINLESS.
1 John refers to being set free from BONDAGE to sin, and from the penalty of sin, but else where in 1 John we are told:
1 JOhn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he who is faithful and just will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
John is here talking about SINFUL DEEDS, not the PRINCIPLE of Sin.
Those who are the Children of God are forgiven for SIN. In that sense we are SIN-less, however, we still commit sinful deads, and need cleansing from those acts.
The word cleansing is the same word that is used to when talking about beating a stain out of a garment as done by the women in ANE by the riverside.
It does NOT infer that we no longer sin, but rather that the stain of sin is still on us, and by this vigorous cleasning, God will cleanse us of this stain of Sin.
We are Sinless because we are SEEN by God as Justified, not because we are actually sinless. We are still flesh (sinful), and will not become sinless in reality until such time as we are raised in a Spiritual body (sinless) - after Christ's return.
JoBeth, you seem to be extremely nieve about this subject. You dont seem to know anything about justification, sanctification, nor have you even heard of inaugerated eschatology. I am afraid we probably cant continue this... as I am no real expert and yet you dont even know the basics
jobeth
Member
Geoff:
Yeah, right. Go you.
The scripture you quoted says:
1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he who is faithful and just will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
But you say:"Those who are the Children of God are forgiven for SIN. In that sense we are SIN-less, however, we still commit sinful deads, and need cleansing from those acts. "
Well, if you still need cleansing, then you have not been cleansed from ALL unrighteousness.
But I have been!
And before you accuse me falsely again, let me say it one more time:
I do not say that I have never sinned or that I have no sin. I only say that I no longer do so.
Can you see the difference?
Yeah, right. Go you.
The scripture you quoted says:
1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he who is faithful and just will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
But you say:"Those who are the Children of God are forgiven for SIN. In that sense we are SIN-less, however, we still commit sinful deads, and need cleansing from those acts. "
Well, if you still need cleansing, then you have not been cleansed from ALL unrighteousness.
But I have been!
And before you accuse me falsely again, let me say it one more time:
I do not say that I have never sinned or that I have no sin. I only say that I no longer do so.
Can you see the difference?
geoff
New member
JoBeth:
The problem is the tense and the actual Greek words. They do not translate accurately.
The tense and tone of 'cleanse' is not something that HAS happened only, but something that has happened and will continue to happen.
The word for Sin indicates sinful deeds, however the later passage the word is the word for the 'state' or 'principle' of Sin.
You see, Christ died so that we might be forgiven and set free from the principle of Sin, the state or unrighteousness before God... sinful deeds are only the outworking of this state, and require ongoing attention by us and God.
Sanctification is not just a STATE, it is a state in the eyes of God, however for us, it is a process also.
Just as we are SEEN as justified, but will not actually BE justified until judgement day, we are SEEN as sanctified, but will not ACTUALLY be sanctified until resurrection. We are seen by God as being in these states because we have been imputed with the righeousness and justification of Christ, we do not possess it ourselves. Imputed means 'accounted' or 'seen as' - it is a forensic term, or an accounting term. We are 'legally' justified and sanctified because we seen to possess Christs justification and sanctification.
It is the "already but not yet principle" otherwise known as inaugerated eschatology.
If you say you no longer sin you are either a liar, or misguided.
I do.... you do not.
The problem is the tense and the actual Greek words. They do not translate accurately.
The tense and tone of 'cleanse' is not something that HAS happened only, but something that has happened and will continue to happen.
The word for Sin indicates sinful deeds, however the later passage the word is the word for the 'state' or 'principle' of Sin.
You see, Christ died so that we might be forgiven and set free from the principle of Sin, the state or unrighteousness before God... sinful deeds are only the outworking of this state, and require ongoing attention by us and God.
Sanctification is not just a STATE, it is a state in the eyes of God, however for us, it is a process also.
Just as we are SEEN as justified, but will not actually BE justified until judgement day, we are SEEN as sanctified, but will not ACTUALLY be sanctified until resurrection. We are seen by God as being in these states because we have been imputed with the righeousness and justification of Christ, we do not possess it ourselves. Imputed means 'accounted' or 'seen as' - it is a forensic term, or an accounting term. We are 'legally' justified and sanctified because we seen to possess Christs justification and sanctification.
It is the "already but not yet principle" otherwise known as inaugerated eschatology.
If you say you no longer sin you are either a liar, or misguided.
I do.... you do not.
jobeth
Member
Geoff:
I tell you that I have so been cleansed from ALL unrighteousness.
I have been set free from sin.
Freed from the PENALTY of sin. (i.e. not guilty)
Freed from the POWER of sin. (i.e. I no longer sin)
And freed from the PRESENSE of sin. (i.e. Rather, I know all things work together for good)
I know you understand what I am saying. But you do not believe me because you have not had the experience of cleansing that I have had. Do you think that a thing is true only if it has happened to you personally?
Really? The Pharisees said the same thing about Jesus that you are saying about me: "Then again called they the man that was blind, and said unto him, Give God the praise: we know that this man is a sinner."
Did they really know or did they only CLAIM to know?
John 8:46 Which of you convinceth me of sin?
And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
I tell you that I have so been cleansed from ALL unrighteousness.
I have been set free from sin.
Freed from the PENALTY of sin. (i.e. not guilty)
Freed from the POWER of sin. (i.e. I no longer sin)
And freed from the PRESENSE of sin. (i.e. Rather, I know all things work together for good)
I know you understand what I am saying. But you do not believe me because you have not had the experience of cleansing that I have had. Do you think that a thing is true only if it has happened to you personally?
Really? The Pharisees said the same thing about Jesus that you are saying about me: "Then again called they the man that was blind, and said unto him, Give God the praise: we know that this man is a sinner."
Did they really know or did they only CLAIM to know?
John 8:46 Which of you convinceth me of sin?
And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?