I think you are missing one giant key distinction.death2impiety said:
Entire nations can be judged (corporately) in a just war.
You don't believe (like Balder does) that the USA was guilty of murder in Hiroshima and Nagasaki do you?
ARCHIVE: Fool is only fooling himself
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Entire nations can be judged (corporately) in a just war.
You don't believe (like Balder does) that the USA was guilty of murder in Hiroshima and Nagasaki do you?
So you don't believe there is such a thing as a just war?Granite said:
If you do... you do in fact support corporate guilt.
genuineoriginal
New member
Balder said:
Ecclesiastes 1
9The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
10Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.
The more I learn of the present world and of history, the more I believe that the historical ways of thinking were more understanding of how mankind really acts. So, I believe that the historical ways of thinking are very appropriate. It is our "modern" ways of thinking that are whacked! :hammer:9The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
10Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.
Balder
New member
Considering that back then they committed genocide, cut down children, stoned people to death, and sometimes did things like hauling a city's inhabitants out to be sawed up and put in ovens (by David, the ancestor of Jesus), I consider that way of living to be more whacked than the present one, in which all of those things are seen for the inhuman horrors that they are.genuineoriginal said:
I am NOT saying that mankind isn't just as capable of evil today. But there are many people present nowadays who no longer accept such behavior as laudable or justifiable.
With all of that said, there's a big difference between saying that people did these things back then (I agree with that), and saying such behavior was divinely endorsed and inspired.
genuineoriginal
New member
And today we have whitewashed and sugar coated our thinking so that we can watch those things on the TV screen, but still act shocked and outraged when we hear about them happening in real life. I try to have no illusions about what people will do, but am often suprised anyway.Balder said:
Balder
New member
I appreciate what you are saying, but it doesn't really address my concerns. I am not saying I'm shocked at what humans can do. I'm not. We can do terrible things.
My problem is with the justification of some of our worst acts in the name of God, such as the defense of genocide which is occurring on this thread.
Which shows that Fool's question was relevant, because modern day Christians are indeed using the Bible to defend these acts in principle.
My problem is with the justification of some of our worst acts in the name of God, such as the defense of genocide which is occurring on this thread.
Which shows that Fool's question was relevant, because modern day Christians are indeed using the Bible to defend these acts in principle.
You keep trotting that horse out and I'll keep shooting it.Knight said:
What D2i brought up was not the same.
It's as if after you nuked the city and Japan surendered you went in there with your bayonet and started spearing infants.
Get it?
Vaporizing infants when you nuke the city is not murder.
Bayoneting infants in the aftermath is murder.
I'm sure I'll need to say this a couple of hundred more times.
I see that D2i already has that distinction set in his mind, so I doubt your canard will confuse him.
Knight said:
I believe just wars can be fought but the cause of them has nothing to do with "corporate" guilt. German civilians weren't our enemy in World War II: the Wehrmacht, Waffen-SS, Kriegsmarine, and Luftwaffe were. Likewise Japanese civilians were not our enemy; the armed forces of Japan were. When "corporate guilt" takes over you see things like the Rape of Nanking, where everyone's treated as ruthlessly as a combatant.
"Corporate guilt" removes individual responsibility, which is where it belongs: national leadership is to blame and is the true target.
death2impiety
Maximeee's Husband
Knight said:
So you're saying that an entire nation can be found guilty as a whole.
I wouldn't say that we're guilty of murder at Hiroshima.
I thought that God wouldn't punish a child for the sins of their father. Destroying a nation and the children therein seems like that's what He's doing. Or is this not considered punishment? Does the Bible ever make the distinction that babies are guilty if the nation is guilty? I suppose as a nation everyone is guilty regardless of personal fault.
death2impiety said:
I would. We deliberately and knowingly targeted non-combatants, including women, children, infants, the elderly and infirm....
I would posit that our guilt was shared by the Japanese, for putting military targets in a populated area. I would also posit that that is a cost of war and the burden modern countries bear for waging it.
death2impiety
Maximeee's Husband
fool said:
Fool what are the Bible verses you are addressing in this argument?
As I said, I don't question God and His methods. If this is what God wanted, I trust His wisdom and authority to do so and I'm sure that there is a reasonable explanation (not that one needs to be garnered to me). Perhaps if one was provided I wouldn't understand it anyway.
The heathen are in constant conflict with God and His methods.
I know what you're getting at, that this seems contradictory (and I know you'll say it is contradictory) to Bob's definition of God.
I think that the answer to "fool's dilemna" lies in the dispensations. God destroyed entire civilizations and cities as He has the right to do to cleanse His Earth of the evil He despises. If God felt that the babies would be better off with Him then I trust His decision. He chooses to do as He sees fit, I trust His actions as a loyal follower and you question them in opposition to Him as an atheist would do. We're both playing out our roles. The scary thing is the difference in opportunity cost. I've been spending my life growing in faith, wisdom and understanding of God and if I'm right I get to spend eternity with a God whom I love and whose love is reciprocated. And if I'm wrong? If the power I feel when I interact with God is fake, if all the time I spend in prayer is really just wasted breath I'll rot in the ground with you. There is no punishment waiting for me if I'm wrong in loving and trusting God fool.
"We won't really know until we die." has become quite a cliche' and it's scary to think that people are willing to live in ignorance or resistance of the possible Truth. There is so much Truth to be found in the Bible. It should be read first to discover the truths it reveals. You can then read it again to search for possible flaws and inconsistancies and pray that God would help you to understand.
Granite said:
How do you separate the contributions of the civilian population in supporting the military? Our success in WWII was due in large part to our ability to turn our enormous industrial base into war goods production. Should not our civilian population that supported that industrial base have been a legitimate target?
death2impiety
Maximeee's Husband
koban said:
War has always been a difficult concept for me to grasp as it pertains to God. The purpose of war should only be to neutralize an immediate threat. It should never be for religious reasons. The way I see it is that the army is the tool of the goverment and the government is either right or wrong as a whole. The people live under and tend to side with the government and are right or wrong likewise by proxy. Of course there are seemingly obvious and not-so-obvious exceptions to this generalization (that being babies...).
As for Hiroshima, I don't believe there is any guilt on our part. The Japanese put their people in danger when they attacked us. Our retaliation was for our own preservation. It wasn't murder.
death2impiety
Maximeee's Husband
koban said:
Thanks K, I'm asking what the verses are. I'm assuming it's Joshua? I can't usually just thumb through the Bible to find any particular story
koban said:
Easily: working in a factory is nowhere near the same as being trained to kill. Turning a knob or shooting a gun are apples and oranges. Whether or not our own civies should have been considered legitimate targets is a moot point considering our oceans protected us from such attacks.
Balder
New member
The Bible has plenty of examples of mass killing of civilians, not just the battle of Jericho. Here are a few examples:
"Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ***." (I Samuel 15:2-3)
"Then we turned, and went up the way to Bashan: and Og the king of Bashan came out against us, he and all his people, to battle at Edrei.
And the LORD said unto me, Fear him not: for I will deliver him, and all his people, and his land, into thy hand; and thou shalt do unto him as thou didst unto Sihon king of the Amorites, which dwelt at Heshbon. So the LORD our God delivered into our hands Og also, the king of Bashan, and all his people: and we smote him until none was left to him remaining. And we took all his cities at that time, there was not a city which we took not from them, threescore cities, all the region of Argob, the kingdom of Og in Bashan. All these cities [were] fenced with high walls, gates, and bars; beside unwalled towns a great many. And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city. But all the cattle, and the spoil of the cities, we took for a prey to ourselves." (Deuteronomy 3:1-7)
"And to the others [the LORD] said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and woman: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house." (Ezekiel 9:5-6)
The following wasn't commanded by God, but seeing as it rivals the holocaust in its methodology and was carried out by the King of the Jews, it is interesting that one seldom if ever hears mention or condemnation of the act:
"And he brought forth the people that were therein, and put them under saws, and under harrows of iron, and under the axes of iron, and made them pass through the brickkiln: and thus did he unto all the cities of the children of Ammon. So David and all the people returned unto Jerusalem." (II Samuel 12:31)
"Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ***." (I Samuel 15:2-3)
"Then we turned, and went up the way to Bashan: and Og the king of Bashan came out against us, he and all his people, to battle at Edrei.
And the LORD said unto me, Fear him not: for I will deliver him, and all his people, and his land, into thy hand; and thou shalt do unto him as thou didst unto Sihon king of the Amorites, which dwelt at Heshbon. So the LORD our God delivered into our hands Og also, the king of Bashan, and all his people: and we smote him until none was left to him remaining. And we took all his cities at that time, there was not a city which we took not from them, threescore cities, all the region of Argob, the kingdom of Og in Bashan. All these cities [were] fenced with high walls, gates, and bars; beside unwalled towns a great many. And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city. But all the cattle, and the spoil of the cities, we took for a prey to ourselves." (Deuteronomy 3:1-7)
"And to the others [the LORD] said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and woman: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house." (Ezekiel 9:5-6)
The following wasn't commanded by God, but seeing as it rivals the holocaust in its methodology and was carried out by the King of the Jews, it is interesting that one seldom if ever hears mention or condemnation of the act:
"And he brought forth the people that were therein, and put them under saws, and under harrows of iron, and under the axes of iron, and made them pass through the brickkiln: and thus did he unto all the cities of the children of Ammon. So David and all the people returned unto Jerusalem." (II Samuel 12:31)
Granite said:
Not in a modern war scenario, especially in an extended war. One's ability to destroy it's enemy's abilty to resupply itself is key.
Not moot.
We targeted civilian production centers (both industrial and agricultural) in Germany and Japan as legitimate targets. (and rightly so)