Apparent Biblical Discrepancies.
- Thread starter bob b
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Aimiel said:
S-t-r-e-t-c-h-e-d out the heavens is what He said He did!
Methinks the created heavens are not the sum total of what we can see with our fallen eyes and whatever else we can invent to look out at the creation with,taking into consideration all in scripture; but that we are like fish in a fishbowl trying to mesure all things from within our own limited boundaries. Never having been on the outside looking in, we cannot imagine what is outside, that we are veiled from seeing because of the fall.
Methinks, also, that the speed of light has no relation to travel through God's creation, but that magnetism of atoms was created by the Creator to be used to place the sun, moon, and stars in their place in the six literal days of creation -and holds them in their respective orbits.
I think gravity is not what we think of it as, but that there is a magnetic field in all creation that causes all creation to operate as it does by the magnetism within the atoms.
I am not a scientist nor do I play one, but I read and believe, and the speed of light is not relevant to the age of the created heavens, I think.
Magnetic fields are responsible for us seeing the 'distant' created heavenly bodies that were placed in orbit in the six days of creation.
How is it that the angel Gabriel was caused to 'fly swiftly' unless he regulated the earth's magnetic field's pull upon himself? Angels don't flap wings and use 'gravity' and don't operate within the boundaries we are held captive in, in our fallen nature.
He wasn't afraid of anything. He just stopped Nimrod &Co from getting into the heavenly realm that all in Adam are veiled from seeing and getting into -until we come through the True accepted Gate; which is the True Mercy Seat [the Mercy Seat is the New Man body of YHWH in flesh, as our Kinsman Redeemer/Avenger] where the blood of sprinkling was offered once, and accepted, for all in Adam to be cleansed from their unclean defilement and accepted in the Beloved Firstborn Son of God into the Presence on high.Granite said:
Being made acceptably clean, we must now be reclothed with clean garments to enter in: which garments are the New Spirit (by being regenerated in spirit by the Spirit of adoption, in Christ), and the regenerated body; which is the 'body of adoption' remade in the image of the New Man, Jesus the Messiah.
No man can climb up any other way, and Nimrod & co had found a way -a gate- to get there, for the word 'babel' was 'god's gate' (gate of god), in Aramaic. The devil will still try to use men to climb up and take the throne in the created heaven, under the wicked one's inspiration, according to Isaiah 14, for he tries to overthrow the throne of the LORD in Jerusalem and in heaven, that the 'Word of God' come in flesh shall return to sit upon in Jerusalem and sits upon as the New Creation human being in the created heaven (since His ascension in His New Man human body in which He is glorified and in which He is returning to reign over His ransomed kingdom as 'the Son of Man').
It's an ongoing battle that began with Satan using men -first, Nimrod & co- against the throne of the LORD in heaven -and on earth.
Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
If Nimrod had been allowed to succeed, the heavens and the earth would have been melted at that time: but he could not be allowed to succeed, for the plan was made to have redeemed, human sons of God inhabit this -now, to be regenerated- earth, forever. Even before we were created as 'sons of God' 'in Adam', and fell, the plan was made for our redemption, in Christ ...and the plan will be finished. Then, after all the sons of God are 'harvested'; the heavens and the earth will be melted and regenerated.
Nimrod &co had to be stopped, and they were, so that the plan could proceed for our redemption in Christ.
So we have thousands of languages that set brilliant mankind [Adamkind] back, a few thousand years, from his rebellion against the throne of the LORD and against His only 'Way' 'back' to the presence of the glory.
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hatsoff
New member
bob b said:
I do understand what you're getting at here, and to some degree I sympathise. I know exactly the folks you're talking about; I've seen them here and elsewhere, and it sickens me a bit every time. They give us agnostics/atheists a bad name!
However, while perhaps 80-90% or so of these "apparent" contradictions don't pan out realistically, the other 10-20% do. One such example is the faith v. works issue I mentioned before.
And even out of those, it is possible (although implausible, in my opinion) to resolve them by stretching--but not quite breaking--logic a bit. However, I just find it much more likely that they are indeed contradictions, not just unclear complexities or differing emphases.
Aimiel
Well-known member
I believe that to be an excellent point-of-view, and think of time and space as the definition of that bubble. The spirit realm cannot be comprehended from within the 'time-space bubble' that we are subject to.thelaqachisnext said:
I believe that spirit-beings are capable of travelling at the speed of thought.thelaqachisnext said:
Aimiel said:
Thank you Aimel, for your reply.
As to the travel at the speed of thought, yes, but much more than thinking has to be involved, methinks.
I believe Scripture shows that spirit beings can eat, and have bodies, just not bodies of this earth's dust as we in Adam do. So they have substance, just not our substance. The manna fed to the Israelites was called 'angels' food', and called the 'corn' [as a grain, which is threshed] 'of heaven'.
They can eat men's food, cook, and there was some kind of rod that vaporized a bullock in a moment, and one was able to make a rock 'a stove' to cook cakes on -all this I gleaned from various passages in Scripture; and if Gabriel was caused to fly swiftly, I don't think he thought faster, but that he used the force of magnetism to get to Daniel faster when he was able to do so -after battling with the prince of Persia for 21 days and getting help from another like himself, Michael, who is the 'chief' of his kind, apparently.
How did the devil take Jesus 'in a moment of time', bodily, to the pinnacle of the temple and show him all the kingdoms of this world?
Our daughter and a friend were trapped under a log jam in a river a couple of years ago when their rafts were overturned at a log jam, by a swift current, and they were swept under the mass of logs and unable to get even their heads out to breathe. My daughter was held under by her fanny pack's straps being caught in the back side of her and her shoe strings caught at her feet; being unable to move or to have a place to get up and out, if she could; she knew she was gonig to drown and felt peaceful about the fact that she knew where she was going when she died; but all of a sudden, when she had no air left, she was of a sudden up, out of the water, without any memory of being released or of getting up! She was just there, on top of a log, with one leg around it, and one in the water, and looking for her friend.
She called to her; "Arlene! Are you up!', and immediately she saw her face not far away, down, below water under a mess of debree that had no free space for even her head to come up through: but as she looked at her -of a sudden- her friend was also up! without climbing out or having any memory of coming through the impossible mat of branches that she was under. Now we would describe that as a miracle, and it was; but something happened to those physical bodies that they were both transported from under tree branches underwater to on top of those traps and out of the water. I think the miracles of the LORD like that would be commonplace if we had not fallen, for we would be sons of God and not 'veiled' from the spiritual realm as we are at this time in our fallen bodies.
Aimiel
Well-known member
I don't believe that happened 'bodily' but that it was a spiritual 'showing' or vision.thelaqachisnext said:
I call that 'translation' which is what happened to Jesus, if what you believe (bodily travel to the pinnacle) happened, and is the method spirit travels superceding the temporal realm.thelaqachisnext said:
I agree, although Jesus' completed work at Calvary destroyed that veil, but how many of us walk in what He has provided? When we finally do come together in the unity of the faith and the knowledge of The Son of God as a mature body, fitly joined together, His enemies will be made His footstool.thelaqachisnext said:
Actually, Jukia, I find more in Scripture than science has ever tried to come to grips with.Jukia said:
CS Lewis did, too, and wrote wonderful fiction stories just touching on the fringes of those things he read in Scripture.
I'm not a theologian, either. But I love and read think about the Word of God and I find more in Scripture than some who call themselves theologians have ever come to grips with, either.
So tell me how you can grasp angels with wings 'flying'? What is flight and where do they 'fly' from, and to?
And I don't think you are a scientist, either, if you want to use the same measure for yourself as for me; and a 'BS' is just BS -nothing more than that! -as far as giving you understanding about the uiniverse and it's Creator..
hatsoff said:
You will have to remain curious unless you read The Plot as I once did. This helped me greatly in understanding what the NT was all about and from then on whenever I read Paul's letters they finally made perfect sense to me. A real "breakthrough".
Hello Aimiel,Aimiel said:
I do believe that Jesus was shown a 'vision' of the kingdoms of the world while on the pinnacle, but hubby just read that chapter a couple weeks ago and stopped to discuss it with me , so it was fresh in my mind. As far as the reading goes, it does seem to imply that He was taken bodily, in His Person, to the pinnalce - and that was the center of hubby's discussion, too, and why Jesus would have allowed the devil to 'take him'?...
Paul didn't know, though, if he was taken to heaven in his body or out of it when he saw things he could not mention.
When Jesus walked on water he was doing so as a human in his body, too, and the water was as a solid to him.
As to how many of us don't walk in what He has provided: though I do not believe in name it and claim it, I do believe in the power granted us in the name of Jesus to do the works He did (which means that we will pray to know what that will is, that we can walk in). He said that if we had the faith as a grain of mustard seed we could say to yonder mountain be removed and cast into the sea and doubt not, and it would be done. A lesson to consider in those words, is it not? when and how we should act in that kind of faith and about what issues. All in His name, though, and not of our own selves and whims.
All these are cause for pause, to me, and no, I do not understand the means, but I do believe magnetism of atomic structures causes angels to be able to fly through the realms of heaven and earth without the speed of light being needed. And I do think the creation has magnetic fields that hold all things within their place (even fallen mankind to earth) -which can be transcended by 'unveiled' bodies.
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As to the girls, Yes, they were both 'translated' just as Phillip was, when the Spirit took him after the baptisim of the Ethiopian Eunuch, but something real happens when one is 'translated' because the spirit has real properties -but not of this earth's physical properties -and we just don't understand it because of the fall.
Even the rich man in Hades -disembodied but bound in hell beneath till his day of resurrection and judgment- wanted water on his tongue and spoke with his voice and saw with his eyes across the chasm to Abraham and Lazarus -none of them were in their clay bodies, but they had real 'bodies' of substance.
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BTW, I remembered that when daughter saw her friend under the -impossible to escape from- mass of branches and roots, and the next instant she was out, from under it, that she also was instantly standing above my daughter, on the log that daughter had one leg over, and with her hand outstretched to give daughter a hand up! The place daughter saw her under was not at that spot that she stood above her at, when free.
Neither can remember any movement of getting out or of coming out -they just were out! PTL!
The friend also said that she was rebreathing the air that she was breathing out, (I didn't know one could do that) and she saw a water bottle go bobbing on down, on top, and thought she'd just 'quit trying' to struggle to live and just 'go' (she'd been having many tribulations in her life at that time and thought about ending it easily, right then, she told us, later) when at that moment she heard the call of my daughter; "Arlene! Are you up?" and immediately thought; "No! I want to live!" -then, of a sudden, there she was, on top of that log above my daughter, reaching out her hand to give her a lift!
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Aimiel
Well-known member
Indeed, The Lord is to be praised for what happened that day that your daughter and her friend were saved physically by The Spirit of Grace.
Too often people who are forced to 'picture' the spirit realm do so with ideas that a spirit is a wispy ghost with no substance. Spirit has more substance than temporal bodies do, not less. The spirit-realm is above the physical, not beneath. The ideas and information that we have on that realm is (at best) only what we 'see through the glass, darkly'.thelaqachisnext said: