Another tally of anti-trinitarian threads

[Trump Gurl]

All I see is blah blah bah

 

[NWL]

All I see is blah blah bah

I feel sorry for you that you, a Christian, feels the need display rudeness instead of love to me when I’ve done nothing to warrant it.

You have right to post anything you want, but again it only makes you look silly when you refuse to discuss the things you assert. Please stop spamming the board and please do not respond to my post unless you are willing to discuss things honestly.

 

[Right Divider]

Why not use your vast knowledge and show us in scripture where it says God the son, or Jesus is not a creature.

That's been done MANY TIMES... but you still do not listen.

Col 1:15-20 KJV Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: (16) For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: (17) And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. (18) And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. (19) For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; (20) And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

 

[Trump Gurl]

I feel sorry for you that you, a Christian, feels the need display rudeness. . . . .

How else am I to respond to your never-ending dishonesty. Your dishonesty is the rudeness here, not me.

And anyway, if you think that me saying "blah blah blah" is rude then you don't know what real rudeness is. Walk a mile in my shoes; you would never be able to handle it.

Why not use your vast knowledge and show us in scripture where it says God the son, or Jesus is not a creature

That's been done MANY TIMES... but you still do not listen.

I know right? They are shown tons of scriptures and all they do is repeat the same thing, "Show me the scriptures." They discuss in bad faith and total dishonesty.

 

[NWL]

How else am I to respond to your never-ending dishonesty. Your dishonesty is the rudeness here, not me.

I do not see how you cannot see a pattern in your constant claims which are completely baseless. You've repeatedly called me dishonest and I've asked you to show me where I've been dishonest; all you've done it claim I've been dishonest, are you not able to show me where, simply tell me the post number?

And anyway, if you think that me saying "blah blah blah" is rude then you don't know what real rudeness is. Walk a mile in my shoes; you would never be able to handle it.

Imagine if President Trump made a sincere point and public appeal to Biden during the presidential elections and Biden’s response was to verbally say “Blah, blah, blah” back to Trump, such a response would be considered rude by anyone's standards, so please stop kidding yourself. What you are appealing to is different levels of rudeness and suggesting because you apparently have received higher degrees of rudeness your rudeness to me is not rudeness, such an idea is silly and ignores Christian values. If I'm not being rude to you, please do not be rude to me.

 

[Trump Gurl]

Like I said: Walk a mile in my shoes; you would never be able to handle it. You people in this forum save your most sick, disgusting insults for Catholics. The names that we are called here are reprehensible.

I was not rude to you so grow up and put on your big boy pants.

 

[NWL]

Like I said: Walk a mile in my shoes; you would never be able to handle it. You people in this forum save your most sick, disgusting insults for Catholics. The names that we are called here are reprehensible.

I was not rude to you so grow up and put on your big boy pants.

Saying "blah blah blah" in response to anyone is rude, there is no debate about it.

"Walk a mile you your shoes", well how do you know my life hasn't been and isn't worse than yours, you're assuming too much. My current career is one of the most hated jobs in the world and I receive insults and threats daily and have been assaulted nunrious times simply for doing my job. I'm in a religion that people such as yourself calls a cult and have received abuse from it over the last 30 years. So to assume you've had it worse than me is a massive guess which probably isn't true. I've never been abusive to you or any Catholic so have no clue what you're talking about.

 

[Trump Gurl]

Saying "blah blah blah" in response to anyone is rude . . .

Unless I am responding to a bunch of "blah blah blah", in which case it is just being real.

I am done with you.

 

[NWL]

Unless I am responding to a bunch of "blah blah blah", in which case it is just being real.

I am done with you.

At least you've made up your mind. If you're truly done with me remember not to reply to any of my posts in disagreement with me, if you do decide to go back on your word please remember to use biblical evidence to back up whatever you are claiming, and also expect a response back from me questioning what you have expressed. I'm always willing to speak to people when they're happy to engage in intelligent and honest discussion, so the door is always open.

 

[Trump Gurl]

 

[Mixed_Brown]

I don't often comment in threads. I mainly just follow to see individuals best arguments.
I saw both NWL and Pierac's comments about the standard of argumentation on TOL being very low. My observation is that for a while now individuals have expressed mainly emotional arguments rather than rational ones based on evidence. Or they just avoid difficult discussions and just assert that what they believe is correct.

I have to say after reading right divider poor arguments (which are just assertions), and Trump girls childish responses, as well as others, I can't help agreeing that TOL has hit all time low.

Does anyone know any sites or forums where real debates on the Trinity and other subjects are still happening?

Or trinitarians, do you not know anyone who is well versed in scripture who you can encourage to come and give a biblical defense for your beliefs?

 

[Lonster]

I don't often comment in threads. I mainly just follow to see individuals best arguments.
I saw both NWL and Pierac's comments about the standard of argumenta I tion on TOL being very low. My observation is that for a while now individuals have expressed mainly emotional arguments rather than rational ones based on evidence. Or they just avoid difficult discussions and just assert that what they believe is correct.

Depends who is doing the argument and what thread you are in. There are plenty of good sites that discuss the Triune nature of God and there are a good many books as well. Most learned scholars ARE Triune. Every Seminary, every Bible college, have excellent courses.

I have to say after reading right divider poor arguments (which are just assertions), and Trump girls childish responses, as well as others, I can't help agreeing that TOL has hit all time low.

:think: Honestly? I think your bias is showing. He uses scripture very often. He and I don't agree on all scriptures. I'd definitely NOT accuse him of poor argument or lack of scripture. It is VERY odd that Arians/Unitarians do. It just isn't demonstrable. Again, remember I don't agree with him on everything and I'd never accuse him of that!

Does anyone know any sites or forums where real debates on the Trinity and other subjects are still happening?

Or trinitarians, do you not know anyone who is well versed in scripture who you can encourage to come and give a biblical defense for your beliefs?

You can try DesiringGod.org I have a thread here on TOL in the exclusively Christian section where you will see the opposite: one of those you esteem above has two very crude and ungodly comments in it. They are the ones who could not discuss these topics patiently, with grace, nor with anything scripturally compelling, just rationalizations rather than explicit Word of God. This thread was never supposed to be a 'debate' thread over the triune nature of God, just an observation thread and discussion 'about' the need for so many threads (it is all Arians and Unitarians are interested in when talking to the rest of Christendom).

 

[Right Divider]

I have to say after reading right divider poor arguments (which are just assertions), ...

Funny how you "just asserted" this without ANY argument.

What a hypocrite!

 

[Trump Gurl]

. . . . I have to say after reading right divider poor arguments (which are just assertions), and Trump girls childish responses, as well as others, I can't help agreeing that TOL has hit all time low. . . . .

I'm crushed. The fact is that I gave the best responses here. But after a never ending onslaught of stupidity in response to my posts, I just started giving them what they seem to like: Crap.

Read these before you put on your God hat and start judging:

Jesus is God
Holy Spirit is God
Father is God
God is Trinity.

Jesus tells his apostles to baptize "in the name [notice, singular, not plural] of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Matt. 28:19). This is a proof-text: three distinct Persons united in the one divine name. In 2 Corinthians 13:14, Paul writes, "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all." We see this same unity of divine Persons in 1 Corinthians 12:4–11, Ephesians 4:4–6, and 1 Peter 1:2–3.

The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus is God (cf. John 8:58, 10:38, 14:10; Col. 2:9). It also clearly teaches that the Holy Spirit is God (cf. Acts 5:3–4, 28:25–28; 1 Cor. 2:10–13). Everyone agrees the Father is God. Yet there is only one God (Mark 12:29, 1 Cor. 8:4–6, Jas. 2:19). How can we hold all four truths except to say all three are One God?

And yes, Jesus DID say he was God. In John 8:58, when quizzed about how he has special knowledge of Abraham, Jesus replies, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I Am"—invoking and applying to himself the personal name of God—"I Am" (Ex. 3:14). His audience understood exactly what he was claiming about himself. "So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple" (John 8:59).

Also significant are passages that apply the title "the First and the Last" to Jesus. This is one of the Old Testament titles of Yahweh: "Thus says Yahweh, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, Yahweh of armies: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; besides me there is no god’" (Is. 44:6; cf. 41:4, 48:12).



That is your problem. It makes sense to the entire Christian Church though.
Jesus is fully God and fully man. He has two natures perfectly united in one person. The term used to describe this is the "hypostatic union".

The hypostatic union is the term used to describe how God the Son, Jesus Christ, took on a human nature, yet remained fully God at the same time. Jesus always had been God (John 8:58, 10:30), but at the incarnation Jesus became a human being (John 1:14). The addition of the human nature to the divine nature is Jesus, the God-man. This is the hypostatic union, Jesus Christ, one Person, fully God and fully man.

Jesus' two natures, human and divine, are inseparable. Jesus will forever be the God-man, fully God and fully human, two distinct natures in one Person. Jesus' humanity and divinity are not mixed, but are united without loss of separate identity. Jesus sometimes operated with the limitations of humanity (John 4:6, 19:28) and other times in the power of His deity (John 11:43; Matthew 14:18-21). In both, Jesus' actions were from His one Person. Jesus had two natures, but only one personality.

So the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are distinguishable from one another in terms of hypostasis (the Scriptural term used, for example, in Hebrews, where Christ is the exact image of the hypostasis of the Father), but they are not "separate" (apart from one another or by themselves), as they share the same nature and same energy, but furthermore, as they are limitless, there is a perichoresis or "interpenetration" of the persons.

So there is similarity, but the similarity ends with the fact that the Divine nature is infinite and incorporeal, and human nature is finite and corporeal (as with all of created nature).

Hebrews: "God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power (ὃς ὢν ἀπαύγασμα τῆς δόξης καὶ χαρακτὴρ τῆς ὑποστάσεως αὐτοῦ, φέρων τε τὰ πάντα τῷ ῥήματι τῆς δυνάμεως αὐτοῦ)

Jesus is God. In fact Jesus is fully God and fully Man, two natures perfectly joined into on e person. I know this is all above your head but try to keep up.

The second deepest mystery of the Christian faith concerns Jesus Christ-The God Man.

The terminology of “person” and “nature” is again used in describing this dogma. The Greek term “hypostasis” generally refers to person and The Hypostatic Union refers to the mysterious union of two natures (divine and human) in the single person of Jesus Christ. In a sense, The Hypostatic Union is the reverse of the Trinity. In the Trinity there is only one nature (divine) but three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. In the Hypostatic Union, there are two natures (divine and human) but only one person: Jesus Christ.

Many Christians never seem to fully realize that Jesus Christ is unique in the duality of His nature. God the Father does not have a human nature nor does God the Holy Spirit, but only God the Son does from the moment of His conception. All three persons, of course, have a divine nature.

This dogma was debated for a long time, but today overwhelmingly Christianity accepts it. For me, this mystery presents in some ways greater challenges than the mystery of the Trinity itself. How can the single person of Jesus Christ simultaneously experience agony in the garden in his humanity while continuing to enjoy the serenity that exists in the bosom of the Trinity in His divinity? I don’t know and neither does anyone else. The two natures, although mysteriously fused to the single personality of Christ, do not commingle which allows Jesus to experience agony and joy simultaneously in some mysterious way.

Of particular fascination to me, however, is the very fact that God did become one of us. Why did He? The best answer again is found in scripture:

“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son”
John 3:16

The Incarnation is part of the divine plan for our salvation. Mary, the Virgin Mother of God, was the first among us to cooperate with God’s plan by freely consenting to the conception of His Son within her womb. The Son of God became one of us-as a stunning counter move to overcome the satanic scourge of sin. The devil was foiled by God in a way that no one could possibly have imagined. Only a divine person could adequately atone for the sins of humanity and Jesus Christ, in His humanity, played out that very role. It is difficult, in the extreme, to even begin to appreciate the degree of love that God has for us to make His only begotten Son the sacrificial lamb for our sake. If fully appreciated, in fact, we would simply never worry again.

God the Father sees all. He sees His Son dying in agony on Calvary-naked, betrayed, denied, mocked and abandoned. God the Father hears all including His Son’s cry from the cross:

“My God, My God, why has thou forsaken Me?”
Matthew 27:46

What father who ever lived would ignore such a plea at that moment, particularly one with the power of the entire universe in the palm of His hand? But, what did God the Father do with the fate of all humanity awaiting His response? Nothing. His only begotten Son fulfilled His mission and died. His Father did nothing to stop it. Of course, Jesus Himself spoke other words on the day of His death, which in addition to God’s love for us, may also serve to explain the lack of divine intervention. What words?

“Father forgive them for they know not what they do”
Luke 23:34

Those words were the greatest ever spoken on our behalf. Jesus knew that His Father would not turn down the request of His only begotten Son. Did Jesus act as our savior with that request? Absolutely! He was not seeking forgiveness merely for the Roman crucifixion detail nor for those among the religious and political authorities who had called for His death, but rather for all humanity whose sin, individually and collectively, nailed Jesus to His cross.

Christians are united in the belief that the atonement of Christ and the graces that flow from the cross are what bridge the otherwise infinite chasm between Holy God and Fallen Man. Regrettably, there are still divisions within the Body of Christ regarding the mechanism by which the free gift of salvation is accepted, but no difference regarding the necessity of Christ’s participation in that process:

“I am the way, the truth and the life: no one comes to the Father but by Me”
John 14:6

Jesus Christ by His atonement and by His call for forgiveness not only restored us to the Kingdom of God but also gave us a destiny now greater in redemption than it had been in creation. That is precisely why Christian theologians sometimes refer to original sin as the “happy fault” (felix culpa).

The Hypostatic Union elevates Christianity to the most awesome of all religions. Jesus freely partook of our humanity, so that we could partake of His divinity.

 

[NWL]

Funny how you "just asserted" this without ANY argument.

What a hypocrite!

It's typically not required for someone to provide evidence to their claim when giving their opinion on matters. If he was engaged in an ongoing discussion with someone about the matter things might be different and it would be expected.

 

[Trump Gurl]

It's typically not required for someone to provide evidence to their claim. . . . .

A thousand times you have asked for evidence, two thousand times it has been given, and yet you continue to ask. At what point should we just write you off as a fundamentally dishonest person.

 

[NWL]

A thousand times you have asked for evidence, two thousand times it has been given, and yet you continue to ask. At what point should we just write you off as a fundamentally dishonest person.

You should have included my full quote into your reply instead of only quoting a part of my full statement. I said "It's typically not required for someone to provide evidence to their claim when giving their opinion on matters. If he was engaged in an ongoing discussion with someone about the matter things might be different and it would be expected". As I clearly stated, if he was engaged in a discussion about the matter then he would be expected to evidence what he is claiming. So when you claim I'm being dishonest I'm not, as nowhere have I demanded evidence from you, or others, when they have not been engaged in discussion with me and have only expressed their opinion about something.

You can write me off as being dishonest when you are actually capable of showing when and where I've ever been dishonest.

 

[Trump Gurl]

A thousand times you have asked for evidence, two thousand times it has been given, and yet you continue to ask. At what point should we just write you off as a fundamentally dishonest person.

You can write me off as being dishonest when you are actually capable of showing when and where I've ever been dishonest.

The dishonesty is in you pretending that you have not been given what you repeatedly ask for. When you are given evidence, you say that you have not been given evidence. You lie, repeatedly. Period.

Talking to you is worse than talking to a rock. At least a rock does not respond with dishonesty like you do. You are Ignored.

 

[keypurr]

That's been done MANY TIMES... but you still do not listen.

So your saying that Col 1:15 is in error?
How about Heb 1:3; the express image of God.......can you name any image that is not created?
Twist all you want but Jesus has a God and there is only one God as Jesus told you in John 17:3.
Follow the scriptures or follow the foolish people who thought the world was flat.

 

[keypurr]

The dishonesty is in you pretending that you have not been given what you repeatedly ask for. When you are given evidence, you say that you have not been given evidence. You lie, repeatedly. Period.

Talking to you is worse than talking to a rock. At least a rock does not respond with dishonesty like you do. You are Ignored.

Your evidence is flawed, just like Trump's.