An open challenge to all closed theists
- Thread starter 1Way
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Rolf Ernst
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Boy! If 1Way ever found Ezek. ch. 33 in the Bible, couldn't he lay down the charges against God for repenting despite the fact He had said that He doesn't. Of course, the PROPER exegesis of Ezek. 33 shows that God is explaining His principles of JUSTICE from which BECAUSE OF HIS IMMUTABILITY, He will never depart. He gives to Ezekiel the various scenarios possible in the conduct of men and after each scenario, informs Ezekiel of what His IMMUTABLE principle of justice is for that scenario. When you read through the chapter, it is clear that God is delineating terms--setting down HARD and FAST, IMMUTABLE principles of justice.
There it is, in black and white, oh man, and YOU CAN BE CERTAIN that God will NEVER alter from it. You can take it to the bank, Nineva. You've got forty days--the well known period of testing. The fact that the king responded so appropriately to the warning clearly demonstrates that he knew what the full import of Jonah's message was even though Jonah might not have-likely did not-speak a word about mercy upon repentance to the king--after all, Jonah didn't WANT them to repent--the king knew the God of the Israelites well enough to (1) know what the proper course for them was under that threatening of doom to come in 40 days and (2), had confidence that God, because of His immutability, would be merciful. Therefore he began a stedfast course of the repentance which he understood God would accept.
Immutably true to His principles of justice seen in Ezek. 33 and Jer.18:7-10, God showed mercy on Ninevah.
Now--what 1Way is seemingly incapable of grasping, is that God acted precisely as He had said He would in that scenario. He wavered from it not by one whit. And how glad the king was then for God's immutable faithfulness. Only Jonah was displeased. In the closing verses, God deals with Jonah about his anger. It is clear that God had sent Jonah to the Ninevites because He intended to turn them back to righteousness. Jonah knew God that well too. That is why he had fled in the opposite direction. His intent toward Nineveh was not one of mercy; but knowing his own wish against God's purpose was futile, he did all he could to not be a party to delivering them thar' wascally Ninevites. So Jonah knew what was up. The king knew what was up. Both understood God well enough to know what was in the offing. They knew on the basis of appreciating God's faithfulness to Himself. God did not vary. As a consequence, Jonah ended up in Ninevah despite his wishes to the contrary, and despite his wishes, the king repented which was God's immutable purpose in sending Jonah to nineveh.
God did not repent of His intention to send Jonah, nor did He repent of the PURPOSE for which He had sent Jonah--to show pity upon the Ninevite, (4:11).
Imagine the consternation of BOTH Jonah and the king if, after the repentance of the Ninevites God had not shown mercy. Jonah would have had to question what kind of change, what mutability in God had taken place that He would act so CONTRARY to the principles of Justive set down in Ezek.33 and Jer. 10 THAT--THAT is what would have been mutability on God's part. Now I want you all to notice that all this effort, all this careful consideration of Jonah, Ezek. and Jer. will (I expect) be wasted on 1Way. Why did I trouble myself?
There it is, in black and white, oh man, and YOU CAN BE CERTAIN that God will NEVER alter from it. You can take it to the bank, Nineva. You've got forty days--the well known period of testing. The fact that the king responded so appropriately to the warning clearly demonstrates that he knew what the full import of Jonah's message was even though Jonah might not have-likely did not-speak a word about mercy upon repentance to the king--after all, Jonah didn't WANT them to repent--the king knew the God of the Israelites well enough to (1) know what the proper course for them was under that threatening of doom to come in 40 days and (2), had confidence that God, because of His immutability, would be merciful. Therefore he began a stedfast course of the repentance which he understood God would accept.
Immutably true to His principles of justice seen in Ezek. 33 and Jer.18:7-10, God showed mercy on Ninevah.
Now--what 1Way is seemingly incapable of grasping, is that God acted precisely as He had said He would in that scenario. He wavered from it not by one whit. And how glad the king was then for God's immutable faithfulness. Only Jonah was displeased. In the closing verses, God deals with Jonah about his anger. It is clear that God had sent Jonah to the Ninevites because He intended to turn them back to righteousness. Jonah knew God that well too. That is why he had fled in the opposite direction. His intent toward Nineveh was not one of mercy; but knowing his own wish against God's purpose was futile, he did all he could to not be a party to delivering them thar' wascally Ninevites. So Jonah knew what was up. The king knew what was up. Both understood God well enough to know what was in the offing. They knew on the basis of appreciating God's faithfulness to Himself. God did not vary. As a consequence, Jonah ended up in Ninevah despite his wishes to the contrary, and despite his wishes, the king repented which was God's immutable purpose in sending Jonah to nineveh.
God did not repent of His intention to send Jonah, nor did He repent of the PURPOSE for which He had sent Jonah--to show pity upon the Ninevite, (4:11).
Imagine the consternation of BOTH Jonah and the king if, after the repentance of the Ninevites God had not shown mercy. Jonah would have had to question what kind of change, what mutability in God had taken place that He would act so CONTRARY to the principles of Justive set down in Ezek.33 and Jer. 10 THAT--THAT is what would have been mutability on God's part. Now I want you all to notice that all this effort, all this careful consideration of Jonah, Ezek. and Jer. will (I expect) be wasted on 1Way. Why did I trouble myself?
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1Way
+OL remote satellite affiliate
Very interesting results...
Very interesting results...
All closed theists
Lovely, so despite all this gathering of (closed theist) minds, and their supposed superior or righteous bible understanding, no one has presented one single reasonable “bible derived” figurative meaning for Jonah 3:10 subsection part B (or any other literal divine repentance passages).
You have no reasonable basis for your claims against the literal understanding of divine repentance, God sometimes does not do what He said/thought He would do. God’s word remains true and shows that you are contrary against it.
I suggest you review God’s word that condemns you for voiding it of meaning because of your tradition.
Very interesting results...
All closed theists
Lovely, so despite all this gathering of (closed theist) minds, and their supposed superior or righteous bible understanding, no one has presented one single reasonable “bible derived” figurative meaning for Jonah 3:10 subsection part B (or any other literal divine repentance passages).
You have no reasonable basis for your claims against the literal understanding of divine repentance, God sometimes does not do what He said/thought He would do. God’s word remains true and shows that you are contrary against it.
I suggest you review God’s word that condemns you for voiding it of meaning because of your tradition.
1Way
+OL remote satellite affiliate
Swordsman – You said
“Void, violate and nullify”, that is what you do, that is how you treat God’s word. If it was truly fine with you to “void, violate and nullify”, then you would be happy to work for anyone who would make figurative what is literal (for no well established reason), but you wont do that exactly because you KNOW that doing such things is wrong. And for that I respect you, but for turning right around and doing that to God’s word, you have no excuse because you know better.
If not, then stop this back and forth bit, come work for me for 2(!) months in a row before payment, and I will upgrade your rate to $150/hr. I'd like to watch as the double minded hypocrisy leaves you for "good".
Really, you just sold out! You will not live what you say you believe. I’m sorry to see you go back on your words so quickly.
“Void, violate and nullify”, that is what you do, that is how you treat God’s word. If it was truly fine with you to “void, violate and nullify”, then you would be happy to work for anyone who would make figurative what is literal (for no well established reason), but you wont do that exactly because you KNOW that doing such things is wrong. And for that I respect you, but for turning right around and doing that to God’s word, you have no excuse because you know better.
If not, then stop this back and forth bit, come work for me for 2(!) months in a row before payment, and I will upgrade your rate to $150/hr. I'd like to watch as the double minded hypocrisy leaves you for "good".
I'm beginning to think I don't agree with either side.
God_Is_Truth
New member
the only two sides are that either the future is open or it's closed.
i really don't see how can you pick neither. it's either open or it's closed. it can't be both open and closed and it can't be neither open or closed. however, just because you choose a particular side it does not mean you have to agree with everything people say about that side. being a closed theist just means you believe that the future is closed. being an open theists means you believe the future is open. THAT'S IT.
*Acts9_12Out*
Member
1Way,
As usual, outstanding! I admire your diligence in defending the Faith! I have often asked the same question.
"What does God really mean when He says He REPENTS if God does not in fact repent?"
The answers that have been given thus far have been, "Um, God didn't change, the people changed..." What I find interesting is the inconsistency when dealing with a passage like Jonah 3:1-4:2. The question that must be asked first is,
"What did God mean when He said (through His prophet Jonah) 'Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!'?"
If God intended to overthrow Nineveh in 40 days, why was it not accomplished? Remember, God doesn't change, right? If only the people changed, then God should have destroyed Nineveh, because He doesn't change. :shocked:
One more thing I find interesting is we see that the people of Nineveh repent (they change), the king of Nineveh repents (he changes) and God repents (He DOESN'T change????)
The people changed, the king changed, but God remained the same?? :kookoo:
Yet another interesting point is as follows...
The CV'ers here say God does not repent. The king of Nineveh (who 'believed' God) wonders if God will repent. Why would the king of Nineveh wonder if God would repent if God does not repent?
Jonah also calls God a God who repents...
So, we are to believe that God is gracious, merciful, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, right? Jonah says God is all of these things. However, the CV'ers here want us to dismiss the fact that Jonah calls God One who repents from doing harm. I wonder how that's supposed to work?
Moses also believes that God repents...
Now, why would Moses ask God to repent if God does not repent?
In fact, when Moses asks God to repent, how does God respond?
God "repented" here, but did not change according to the CV'ers... Again, this makes no sense in light of the fact that God's intention was to destroy the people.
What's really interesting here is that the people never changed, but God still repented! God said He was going to kill them all, and start all over with Moses. Moses prayed, and God stayed the same? Uh, no... God changed His mind about the harm He said he was going to do...
Well 1Way, Jonah believes God repents. Moses believes God repents. Jeremiah and Ezekiel believe God repents... Seems to me that we're in great company! :thumb:
Take care brother,
--Jeremy Finkenbinder
As usual, outstanding! I admire your diligence in defending the Faith! I have often asked the same question.
"What does God really mean when He says He REPENTS if God does not in fact repent?"
The answers that have been given thus far have been, "Um, God didn't change, the people changed..." What I find interesting is the inconsistency when dealing with a passage like Jonah 3:1-4:2. The question that must be asked first is,
"What did God mean when He said (through His prophet Jonah) 'Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!'?"
If God intended to overthrow Nineveh in 40 days, why was it not accomplished? Remember, God doesn't change, right? If only the people changed, then God should have destroyed Nineveh, because He doesn't change. :shocked:
One more thing I find interesting is we see that the people of Nineveh repent (they change), the king of Nineveh repents (he changes) and God repents (He DOESN'T change????)
The people changed, the king changed, but God remained the same?? :kookoo:
Yet another interesting point is as follows...
The CV'ers here say God does not repent. The king of Nineveh (who 'believed' God) wonders if God will repent. Why would the king of Nineveh wonder if God would repent if God does not repent?
Jonah also calls God a God who repents...
So, we are to believe that God is gracious, merciful, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, right? Jonah says God is all of these things. However, the CV'ers here want us to dismiss the fact that Jonah calls God One who repents from doing harm. I wonder how that's supposed to work?
Moses also believes that God repents...
Now, why would Moses ask God to repent if God does not repent?
In fact, when Moses asks God to repent, how does God respond?
God "repented" here, but did not change according to the CV'ers...
Again, this makes no sense in light of the fact that God's intention was to destroy the people.What's really interesting here is that the people never changed, but God still repented! God said He was going to kill them all, and start all over with Moses. Moses prayed, and God stayed the same? Uh, no... God changed His mind about the harm He said he was going to do...
Well 1Way, Jonah believes God repents. Moses believes God repents. Jeremiah and Ezekiel believe God repents... Seems to me that we're in great company! :thumb:
Take care brother,
--Jeremy Finkenbinder
Rolf Ernst
New member
Poor, pathetic souls--unable to understand that, as I pointed out in the 42nd post of this thread, God relates to human instrumentalities; threatens them with destruction to provoke them to repentance; reveals to Abraham his servant His interest in Sodom and Gomorrah to provoke Abraham's intercession for those cities (believe it or NOT, OVer, God DOES work through human instruments and reveals to them truths concerning His principles of justice to provoke them to interceed on behalf of others); reveals to Hezekiah his illness to provoke him to prayer; promises a rebuilding of His people's land and then appends to that promise His requirement that though He is going to do that for Judah, yet He will have them plead to Him about doing so.
Poor, pathetic souls--unable to understand that what took place in regard to Nineveh takes place EVERYTIME a sinner is converted to Christ; unable to understand that EVERY sinner, until he is regenerated by the working of god's mighty power, is continually, without relief, under the wrath of God and ALL the threatenings of divine justice; unable to understand that the THREATENINGS of God's justice weigh down upon them just as heavily as those warnings pressed down upon the Ninevites
But Jonah was not as blind as the OVers. He knew what was up and did not want God to have pity on the Ninevites. Therefore he ran in the opposite direction--away from Nineveh--because he was not ignorant of God's ways. Though God had given Him a message of destruction to come in 40 days, Jonah knew 40 days as a period of testing, and that if in those 40 days Nineveh repented, God would be merciful according to His immutable principles of divine justice which God had Ezekiel write down in chapter 33 and Jeremiah express in 18:7-10; knew that if the Ninevites repented, God would be merciful, and he did not want that. so Jonah fled.
And even the Ninevite king understood God's principles of divine justice better than today's OVers; knew that God's threatenings were always withdrawn upon Godly repentance. When the Ninevite king heard the mention of a period of 40 days, he recognized it as a period of testing which the God of the Israelites often applied; recognized it as the length of time he was given to repent and therefore he quickly set out to avert the threatened judgment. He knew, you see, that God was immutable and would therefore be merciful. He was a Gentile--outside the usual reach of God's mercies. Yet He knew God would NOT REPENT of His divine principle of justice which ALWAYS extended mercy upon repentance.
Poor OVers--living in an age where so much of God's grace has been revealed and yet they are unable to understand as much about God's immutable principles of divine justice as that heathen king!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It has been forever true and STILL is that "A man can receive NOTHING except it be given him from heaven." All caps mine. I wash my hands of you!
Poor, pathetic souls--unable to understand that what took place in regard to Nineveh takes place EVERYTIME a sinner is converted to Christ; unable to understand that EVERY sinner, until he is regenerated by the working of god's mighty power, is continually, without relief, under the wrath of God and ALL the threatenings of divine justice; unable to understand that the THREATENINGS of God's justice weigh down upon them just as heavily as those warnings pressed down upon the Ninevites
But Jonah was not as blind as the OVers. He knew what was up and did not want God to have pity on the Ninevites. Therefore he ran in the opposite direction--away from Nineveh--because he was not ignorant of God's ways. Though God had given Him a message of destruction to come in 40 days, Jonah knew 40 days as a period of testing, and that if in those 40 days Nineveh repented, God would be merciful according to His immutable principles of divine justice which God had Ezekiel write down in chapter 33 and Jeremiah express in 18:7-10; knew that if the Ninevites repented, God would be merciful, and he did not want that. so Jonah fled.
And even the Ninevite king understood God's principles of divine justice better than today's OVers; knew that God's threatenings were always withdrawn upon Godly repentance. When the Ninevite king heard the mention of a period of 40 days, he recognized it as a period of testing which the God of the Israelites often applied; recognized it as the length of time he was given to repent and therefore he quickly set out to avert the threatened judgment. He knew, you see, that God was immutable and would therefore be merciful. He was a Gentile--outside the usual reach of God's mercies. Yet He knew God would NOT REPENT of His divine principle of justice which ALWAYS extended mercy upon repentance.
Poor OVers--living in an age where so much of God's grace has been revealed and yet they are unable to understand as much about God's immutable principles of divine justice as that heathen king!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It has been forever true and STILL is that "A man can receive NOTHING except it be given him from heaven." All caps mine. I wash my hands of you!
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I was wondering when you were going to give up on these guys. The natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God; they are foolishness to him. Neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. We are all OVers and Arminians by birth. We will never change until the Spirit shows us otherwise.
It will be interesting to see people argue with God about these things when the wicked are finally judged. I wonder if He will let them? :think:
-- helmet84
God_Is_Truth
New member
depends if it was predestined or not
lee_merrill
New member
What does God mean when he says he has arms if God does not in fact have arms? It means he's describing something to us in terms we can understand.
Jonah sees this differently:
JNH 4:2 I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity.
God is consistent in his responses to people who do change, we know what to expect, his response changes, but he remains the same. "I knew that you are..."
That's right, gorillas have arms, people have arms, but God does not have an arm. He doesn't change his plan. It means something we can understand, but also something different than what we do when we repent. You could read here "changed his response," instead of "repented", and say here the people changed their response, the king changed his response, and God changed his response. The people were changed in the process, but God was not. There's two answers for the price of one...
God does not have an arm...
EZE 22:30 "I looked for a man among them who would build up the wall and stand before me in the gap on behalf of the land so I would not have to destroy it, but I found none."
Moses' prayer is a factor here, too. People repenting is not the only reason God will relent. Prayer is a reason, as well:
AM 7:2-3 When they had stripped the land clean, I cried out, "Sovereign Lord, forgive! How can Jacob survive? He is so small!" So the Lord relented. "This will not happen," the Lord said.
One more comment, about the Nineveh text, I would add that the city *was* overthrown, but by repentance, and not by judgment.
Blessings,
Lee
God_Is_Truth
New member
!!
!!
must be God's fault for predestining me that way!
!!
must be God's fault for predestining me that way!
God_Is_Truth
New member
Lee,
the point is that we can determine that when it says that God has an arm that its figurative of say his might or his power or his strenght or perhaps his protectiveness. we replace the literal meaning with what it's figuring. the problem with the repentence passages is that people say they are figurative WITHOUT telling us WHAT they are figuring.
the point is that we can determine that when it says that God has an arm that its figurative of say his might or his power or his strenght or perhaps his protectiveness. we replace the literal meaning with what it's figuring. the problem with the repentence passages is that people say they are figurative WITHOUT telling us WHAT they are figuring.
God_Is_Truth
New member
then he's not really changing his mind is he? if it was predetermined then he knew about it in advance and thus his mind was already set for that. repentence becomes an illusion.
*Acts9_12Out*
Member
helmet,
What I find interesting is the fact that you force a calvinistic conclusion into 1 Corinthians 2:14 that does not need to be there. You seem to imply that a "soulish" man is unable to respond to the gospel. In fact, you fail to realize the entire context of 1 Corinthians 2:14. We need to pick up the context in the first chapter...
I diasgree that verse 14 is saying that the "natural" or soulish man cannot or is unable to become saved. I'm sure this is fine with you since that's why we're here, right? To discuss our wonderful God's Word and try to reach a valid conclusion.
I hope that you'll agree that Paul writes 1 Corinthians soon after his encounter with the philosophers "in the midst of the Areopagus" in Acts 17:22-33. He is frustrated with the "wisdom" (sophia) of the world and spends the first 2 chapters of 1 Corinthians addressing the "sophia" or philosophy (lit. love of wisdom) of the world. He begins his discussion in 1 Cor 1:18,
Paul references his encounter with the philosophers on Mars Hill. The message of the cross is foolishness to them, and they even mocked him.
Paul goes on to describe God's view of worldly rationalism and philosophy.
helmet, please check out how many times the word "sophia" is used in chapters 1 and 2. This is Paul's emphasis, not the total depravity of mankind. When Paul opens chapter 2, he is still referring to his encounter on Mars Hill.
Paul goes on to describe men like those he encountered on the Areopagus contrasted with believers. Let's look at how this unfolds.
Verse 10 clearly shows that God has revealed "The things which God has prepared for those who love Him." of verse 9. The Spirit searches all thins, yes the deep things of God.
This covers all men, saved or unsaved. The spirit of the man knows the things of the man, saved or unsaved. Only the Spirit of God knows the things of God. Next, Paul addresses Christians.
What are those things that they have been given? The things which God has prepared for those who love Him of verse 9. They have an experetial knowledge of God. They understand His blessings, His peace that surpasses all understanding, etc..
This verse shows that man's "philosophy" or "sophia" is nothing compared to the wisdom of the Holy Spirit.
Here's our controversial verse. helmet, would you agree that the context suggests that Paul is referring back to the philosophers who mocked him on Mars Hill? He is saying that those men who have not trusted in Christ will not experience God's blessings, peace, or The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.
The natural man, or soulish man does not have the Holy Spirit to judge all things.
helmet, don't you think that if God had wanted us to believe that man is unable to receive the things of God, He would've used a word to convey that idea? Why didn't God use the negative of "dunamai" in the first part of verse 14, which would definitely show the inability to receive the things of God? I think that the context suggests Paul's frustration with the philosophers of the world, and his security in Christ because he is experiencing, "The things which God has prepared for those who love Him."
Please look outside your calvinistic box and consider the true context of Paul's statement in 1 Corinthians 2:14.
--Jeremy
*Acts9_12Out*
Member
lee,
As GIT has explained, we can understand what the Bible means when it says He has an "arm" or something like that. The question still stands... What is the Bible trying to say the 20+ times it says God repents? Does God repent or not? Secondly, how do you interpret the passages that say God "does not repent" literally, but choose to interpret the passages that say He "does repent" figuratively?
Now, we would have an issue if God said, "I have an arm," if He does not actually have an arm. However, God never says that about Himself. Rather, OT authors describe physical attributes of God which we are able to explain the meaning behind. Now, I ask, why would God say He repents, if He does not repent?
Now, what does God mean when He says He repents, if He does not repent?
--Jeremy
As GIT has explained, we can understand what the Bible means when it says He has an "arm" or something like that. The question still stands... What is the Bible trying to say the 20+ times it says God repents? Does God repent or not? Secondly, how do you interpret the passages that say God "does not repent" literally, but choose to interpret the passages that say He "does repent" figuratively?
Now, we would have an issue if God said, "I have an arm," if He does not actually have an arm. However, God never says that about Himself. Rather, OT authors describe physical attributes of God which we are able to explain the meaning behind. Now, I ask, why would God say He repents, if He does not repent?
Now, what does God mean when He says He repents, if He does not repent?
--Jeremy