An Atheist's Misinterpretation

[Jose Fly]

Gee, you'd think the Word of God would be more clear.

 

[Daniel1611]

In Mathew 23, Jesus is prophesying the end times. It is clear that he is saying that the generation that enters the end times will not pass away untill it is finished. What he's saying is the end times wont last longer than a generation.

 

[csuguy]

Thanks. But I am looking at the whole context, beginning with:

Matthew 24:1-2.

And even just before this where Jesus weeps over Jerusalem and laments its destruction. So everything Jesus says is in answer to this question: when will Jerusalem be destroyed and what signs will accompany it?

As you rightly say, the meaning of 'you' is clarified by the context. This is the context. 'You' is the disciples he is speaking to and the other disciples who would believe in him who were in danger of being caught up in the violence that was to come.

The verse in question appears within the context of the parable of the fig and is further qualified by him going onto say that he has no idea of when these things will occur - but that they will occur at a time we do not expect. You must not only look at the general theme of the chapter but at the immediate context in which a verse is stated.

You want to point to 70 AD, but it is clear that this is an unfit match for everything written both in the chapter and in Daniel's 70 weeks. You are conveniently ignoring the fact that Jesus didn't come back at that time. And that isn't the only short coming. Example:

9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. Matthew 24:9-14​

We know the gospel wasn't preached throughout the whole world by 70 AD.

 

[MichaelCadry]

You must consider the surrounding text in which the verse appears to understand who "this generation" is. Consider the immediate context of the verse:

“Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[e] is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. Matthew 24:32-35
​

You assume that "this generation" refers to whom he is immediately speaking. However, as we see above, he says this within the context of the parable of the fig tree. He says that "when you see these things" - that is when you see these signs and events which he above describes as the beginning of birth pains - that then you will "know that it is near, right at the door." And it is "THIS generation who will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened," that is to say, the generation who sees these signs.

Furthermore, the rest of the chapter goes onto describe the fact that no one knows the day nor the hour when these things will occur - not even the angels in heaven or the Son, but only the Father - only God Almighty himself. It would be quite foolhardy to say that no one knows this, not even the son - yet then try to say that the Son gave a deadline of the immediate generation.

There are false prophets who have tried to rebut that while we might not be able to pinpoint the day or the hour that we can know the week, month, year, etc. when these things will occur - but I don't think anyone can honestly read that passage and come to the conclusion that it was intended to merely restrict the precision of calculating when these things will occur. Rather the spirit of the verse is that it is beyond us to know when these things will occur until they start occurring - and even then, only if you have been persevering and keeping watch.

“Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him. Matthew 24:42-44​

Dear csuguy,

You have outdone yourself with a few excellent post here. May God always be with you!!

Much Love, In Christ,

Michael

 

[MichaelCadry]

I wouldn't have bothered to ask. The mere fact that he said it shows that he delights in attention-seeking and I try not to oblige. I am not interested in mysteries but in openness.



Unfortunately, this explanation suffers from a serious error of logic. Because in order to make a meaningful statement you must distinguish certain things from certain other things. But if Jesus meant the whole of mankind from Adam then his statement is just a truism that this generation will end when it ends.



Unfortunately, this explanation suffers from a similar deficit as that of Michael Cadry above. Clearly Jesus says 'When you see these things'. So I don't see how you can say in the same breath that he is referring to some future generation when the events are going to happen and then overlook that he is speaking to the present generation. The cataclysmic events surrounding the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 ad are easily enough to explain the language Jesus uses. And although this would support a preterist viewpoint, it doesn't prove a preterist viewpoint as there are other ways of looking at it. But the idea that Jesus was prophesying the fall of Jerusalem in 70 ad. is natural and well attested.

Jesus said many things which are not recorded in the Gospels and I am not saying that the preterist viewpoint is correct. Perhaps both the long and the short period return of Jesus were taught. And it is an obvious driver in Christian thought and ethics that there will be a final judgement. Jesus' warnings to flee Jerusalem were acted on by the early Christians and it seems obvious to me that Jesus' warnings must have, for that reason, been specific enough to be of value to them. But as the years go on and ten thousand interpretations have been given of how his words would apply to each present generation throughout history, the predictions of Jesus seem less and less meaningful and I think it would be entirely reasonable to conclude that they were not meant for us at all.

Dear desert reign,

Do you live in the desert? I do. Hey, I just wanted to mention also that when Jesus said, 'every eye shall see Him, and they also who pierced Him {Rev. 1:7KJV}. "And the graves were opened, and many... and went into the city, and appeared to many." {Matt. 27:52KJV}. So was it then, so will it be at His 2nd Coming!! Thanks for Your post, Bro!!

Michael

P.S. I ignored your grievous words towards me. That is how I am. Love also your 'enemies.'

 

[daqq]

If you find this convincing- good for you. To me it looks like, for lack of a more polite term, nonsense. .

I clearly stated that the examples of such typology abound. This typology runs throughout Torah and Prophets and that was only the proverbial tip of the iceberg. What do you want me to do? post a book of Scripture passages for you in someone else's thread? You have Moshe and the Prophets.

I wouldn't have bothered to ask. The mere fact that he said it shows that he delights in attention-seeking and I try not to oblige. I am not interested in mysteries but in openness.

Paul speaks of many mysteries and you would likewise do well to seek the truth of those matters rather than judging others as you have done all over this thread already in such a short amount of space. I posted many Scripture passages which all have to do with the OP and the "generations" of man; and you only show your own inner bitterness and gall when you judge that I only do so for my own glory. As another poster already said, Yeshua quoted much from Scripture, (and the apostolic new covenant writings did not yet exist at that time) and we all would likewise do well to understand when, where, and why he quoted what he did, which can only be done by checking the contexts of the those places from where he quoted. You claim to read Greek but what good does it do for you if you cannot even abide by what comes through in plain English? Matthew 7:1 immediately comes to mind and what follows applies directly to you for judging others without cause or good reason as you have done here in this thread: "Therefore all things whatsoever you would that men should do to you, do you even so to them: for this is the Torah and the Prophets", (Matthew 7:12). You put yourself right back under the Torah and Prophets when you judge the motives of others, (especially unfairly) as you have done even right here. Do you not hear Paul when he says that you formerly served the Prince of the power of the air and unclean spirit of the world? Where did that one go when he went out of you? or did he truly ever even go forth from you? and does Yeshua not say that the unclean spirit returns to his house from whence he came, with seven other spirit more wicked than himself, as was quoted from Matthew 12:43-45 on the previous page? Do you not believe the Testimony of Yeshua or Paul? Do you not believe what Yeshua says about the the seven headed queen of Sheva the south rising up against you in your hour of judgment and great tribulation? You only curse yourself when you attempt to curse others as you have done here. It does you no good to read Greek or Hebrew if you do not believe what you read and apply it to yourself. You are fooling yourself having placed yourself under the judgment of both Torah and Prophets by the Testimony of Yeshua. In the afterglow days you will consider it perfectly, (if indeed you overcome in your appointed time). :crackup:

Dear desert reign,

Do you live in the desert? I do. Hey, I just wanted to mention also that when Jesus said, 'every eye shall see Him, and they also who pierced Him {Rev. 1:7KJV}. "And the graves were opened, and many... and went into the city, and appeared to many." {Matt. 27:52KJV}. So was it then, so will it be at His 2nd Coming!! Thanks for Your post, Bro!!

Michael

P.S. I ignored your grievous words towards me. That is how I am. Love also your 'enemies.'

Look at his name Micheal; the king of Arabia is Aretas `Aza'zel.
Know to whom it is you speak . . . :crackup:

 

[George Affleck]

Gee, you'd think the Word of God would be more clear.

Yes, those who have not been regenerated would think that for sure.

You keep validating what the Bible says Jose.

 

[George Affleck]

In Mathew 23, Jesus is prophesying the end times. It is clear that he is saying that the generation that enters the end times will not pass away untill it is finished. What he's saying is the end times wont last longer than a generation.

Heb 1:2KJV, 1 Pet 1:20KJV, 1 Cor 10:11KJV, Ac 2:17KJV, 1 Jo 2:18KJV

The apostles knew they were in the "end times".

 

[MichaelCadry]

If you find this convincing- good for you. To me it looks like, for lack of a more polite term, nonsense. .

Yes, chair, that is TOTAL nonsense. Just wanted to let you know that I feel the same way, dude!

Remain Content And Joyful At The Coming Of The Lord Jesus,

Michael

 

[MichaelCadry]

I clearly stated that the examples of such typology abound. This typology runs throughout Torah and Prophets and that was only the proverbial tip of the iceberg. What do you want me to do? post a book of Scripture passages for you in someone else's thread? You have Moshe and the Prophets.



Paul speaks of many mysteries and you would likewise do well to seek the truth of those matters rather than judging others as you have done all over this thread already in such a short amount of space. I posted many Scripture passages which all have to do with the OP and the "generations" of man; and you only show your own inner bitterness and gall when you judge that I only do so for my own glory. As another poster already said, Yeshua quoted much from Scripture, (and the apostolic new covenant writings did not yet exist at that time) and we all would likewise do well to understand when, where, and why he quoted what he did, which can only be done by checking the contexts of the those places from where he quoted. You claim to read Greek but what good does it do for you if you cannot even abide by what comes through in plain English? Matthew 7:1 immediately comes to mind and what follows applies directly to you for judging others without cause or good reason as you have done here in this thread: "Therefore all things whatsoever you would that men should do to you, do you even so to them: for this is the Torah and the Prophets", (Matthew 7:12). You put yourself right back under the Torah and Prophets when you judge the motives of others, (especially unfairly) as you have done even right here. Do you not hear Paul when he says that you formerly served the Prince of the power of the air and unclean spirit of the world? Where did that one go when he went out of you? or did he truly ever even go forth from you? and does Yeshua not say that the unclean spirit returns to his house from whence he came, with seven other spirit more wicked than himself, as was quoted from Matthew 12:43-45 on the previous page? Do you not believe the Testimony of Yeshua or Paul? Do you not believe what Yeshua says about the the seven headed queen of Sheva the south rising up against you in your hour of judgment and great tribulation? You only curse yourself when you attempt to curse others as you have done here. It does you no good to read Greek or Hebrew if you do not believe what you read and apply it to yourself. You are fooling yourself having placed yourself under the judgment of both Torah and Prophets by the Testimony of Yeshua. In the afterglow days you will consider it perfectly, (if indeed you overcome in your appointed time). :crackup:


Paul and the disciples {and Stephen}, and other apostles, thought they were going to die for a good part of their lives, and that the rapture was in their lifetime on earth. There is a generation of man, beginning with Adam, and there is generation of this world that, so far, it is encroaching upon us and you all don't even know that. I don't want to tell you too much because it is hidden from you. Others may know, but you cannot, because you are not ready mentally or spiritually.

God Be With Your Heart, Mind and Spirit,

Michael





Look at his name Micheal; the king of Arabia is Aretas `Aza'zel.
Know to whom it is you speak . . . :crackup:

Dear daqq,

You can't even spell my name right. It is MichAEl. It's okay though.

 

[nonanomanon]

In his book "The Atheist’s Introduction to the New Testament: How the Bible Undermines the Basic Teachings of Christianity", Mike Davis says that, for him, the deciding factor about Christianity came down to Matthew 24:34.

I, of course, like the KJV so here it is:
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Proverbs 30:11-15 KJV
11. There is a generation [1] that curseth their father, and doth not bless their mother.
12. There is a generation [2] that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness.

Division of Joseph, The boat Tequesta teens Austin Stephanos and Perry Cohen were in when they disappeared is also missing. Article Link. (Do not open fire, do not engage).

70 Generations of Luke = 1 Generation of the Sons of God
42 Generations of Matthew = 1 Generation of Sons of God
(Genealogy of Matthew 1 Breaks off after Joseph because Mary is Counted, to identify with the Hebrew Genealogy that was connected previously to the Sons of God)

28 Generations of Satan counted separately, as the 2nd Generation (70 - 42 = 28) (Therefore the 144,000 of Reuben and the 144,000 of Benjamin must be counted separately for 28 Generations in which the 144,000 of Joseph are highlighted in the New Testament)


1Chronicles5:3 (28 Generations are separated from "Joseph", just like the Genealogy of Matthew 1 with "Mary")

1. Reuben (144,000 of Reuben)
2. Hanoch
3. Pallu
4. Hezron
5. Carmi
6. Joel
7. Shemaiah
8. Gog
9. Shimei
10. Micah
11. Reaia
12. Baal
13. Beerah (Reference to 144,000 of Benjamin which is separated from Joseph by the Viel referenced as the King of Assyria in 1Chronicles5:6)
14. Jeiel (Star Wormwood is the 14th or "Remnant of Isreal", that identifies with Joseph, just a parody)
15. Zechariah (Tribe of Zebulum or the Curse of Creation, as a parody)
16. Bela
17. Azaz
18. Shema
19. Joel
20. Shapham (1Chronicles5:11 continues after Joel which was introduced in 1Chronicles5:8)
21. Jaanai
22. Shaphat
23. Michael
24. Meshullam
25. Sheba
26. Jorai
27. Jachan
28. Zia (Tribe of Zebulum parodies the 14 Tribes the Curse of Creation as a parody)


Jesus did indeed say this Generation of Satan shall not pass until the word of the law is fulfilled. So he was absolutely correct, the Generation of Satan, that did not parallel the Sons of God. That has simply continued from Jesus's day to the end of time, that is to the very day of the Antichrist. (The Gospel is not Counting Satan for 28 Generations, it simply restates the Sons of God for 28 Generations as a parable, so we can imply that Satan is separated from the Sons of God to some degree spiritually for 28 Generations).

 

[George Affleck]

14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

We know the gospel wasn't preached throughout the whole world by 70 AD.

You left out an important part of the verse.
It says, in your version, "as a testimony to all nations".

KJV says; "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

Acts 2 shows us this came to pass well before Jerusalem was destroyed. God deposited the gospel as a "testimony" (witness) throughout the entire inhabited world through His "chosen people" no less.

Verse 5 - "And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven."
Verse 11 - "...we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
Verse 37 - "Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?"

Please read the entire section - very interesting. Apparently they were at Jerusalem as delegates for their synagogues for the Pentecost celebrations. But they got more than they bargained for. They became God's first missionaries to the whole world.

God ensured, prior to the days of great tribulation (AD 70) that the gospel was deposited, as a witness, in "every nation under heaven" in "devout men" who undoubtedly took this good news with them when they returned to their own country.

 

[Jose Fly]

Yes, those who have not been regenerated would think that for sure.

Looks more like it's the believers who can't agree what Jesus was talking about.

 

[George Affleck]

I agree with Chair and Michael.

Non is spewing nonsense.

 

[George Affleck]

Looks more like it's the believers who can't agree what Jesus was talking about.

Right again!!

To you it would look like that.

Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, and saying, Where is the promise of his coming?

 

[Jose Fly]

Right again!!

And you'd think God would ensure his word would be more clear and understandable.

 

[nonanomanon]

You left out an important part of the verse.
It says, in your version, "as a testimony to all nations".

KJV says; "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

Acts 2 shows us this came to pass well before Jerusalem was destroyed. God deposited the gospel as a "testimony" (witness) throughout the entire inhabited world through His "chosen people" no less.

Jesus had no choice but to eliminate a significant portion of human life in Jerusalem, certain kinds and groups of people, completing the work of King Herod, which he began before Jesus entered into Jerusalem as a babe. Mark 5:10-13, parallels Matthew 2:1-8 (which appears to state King Herod, had no choice but to kill, certain kings and groups of people, to prepare Jerusalem for Jesus the Messiah) (the approximate action, no more and no less, of sterilization that happens when God is given no choice, but to keep doing that, at the end of time with the antichrist).

Er to Jesus = 28 Generations of Luke 3 (Luke 3:23-28)

NUMBERS 26:19 The sons of Judah [were] Er and Onan: and Er and Onan died in the land of Canaan.

Er was euthanized because he was wicked in Genesis 38:7 (a picture of Satan). Onan was euthanized because he was barren in Genesis 38:9-10 (a picture of the devil). So we know why God distanced himself from satan for 28 Generations, to help ensure the potential to inherit the New Universe. (certain kinds and groups of people are described as sterile or barren compared to the sons of god).

Point being, Acts 2 could easily apply during Jesus's Life Time, beginning with the Wise Men that came from all the nations to receive the knowledge of the Lord at his birth. Since Jesus marked the 42nd Generation, this had to have happened during his lifetime. (Therefore 70AD is the less correct position).

 

[George Affleck]

And you'd think God would ensure his word would be more clear and understandable.

Sounds like deja vu all over again.

 

[MichaelCadry]

I wouldn't have bothered to ask. The mere fact that he said it shows that he delights in attention-seeking and I try not to oblige. I am not interested in mysteries but in openness.


Unfortunately, this explanation suffers from a similar deficit as that of Michael Cadry above. Clearly Jesus says 'When you see these things'. So I don't see how you can say in the same breath that he is referring to some future generation when the events are going to happen and then overlook that he is speaking to the present generation. The cataclysmic events surrounding the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 ad are easily enough to explain the language Jesus uses. And although this would support a preterist viewpoint, it doesn't prove a preterist viewpoint as there are other ways of looking at it. But the idea that Jesus was prophesying the fall of Jerusalem in 70 ad. is natural and well attested.

Jesus said many things which are not recorded in the Gospels and I am not saying that the preterist viewpoint is correct. Perhaps both the long and the short period return of Jesus were taught. And it is an obvious driver in Christian thought and ethics that there will be a final judgement. Jesus' warnings to flee Jerusalem were acted on by the early Christians and it seems obvious to me that Jesus' warnings must have, for that reason, been specific enough to be of value to them. But as the years go on and ten thousand interpretations have been given of how his words would apply to each present generation throughout history, the predictions of Jesus seem less and less meaningful and I think it would be entirely reasonable to conclude that they were not meant for us at all.

Unfortunately, this explanation suffers from a serious error of logic. Because in order to make a meaningful statement you must distinguish certain things from certain other things. But if Jesus meant the whole of mankind from Adam then his statement is just a truism that this generation will end when it ends.

Dear Desert Reign,

I do not delight in any "attention-seeking." I didn't plan on being on this thread long. I was just helping out my friend, George A. So, By THIS, I will say 'adieu' and leave you all to be telling all sorts of lies that you've made up for yourself. For this is what I see you've mostly all been doing. You might remember that Jesus spoke to John of Patmos about the coming of Christ's Kingdom which is of His Father, Our God. God did say, 'Sit thou (Jesus) on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool {See Matt. 22:44KJV or Mark 12:36KJV, or Luke 20:43KJV}. They are above the Earth, so that footstool thing makes absolute sense. You see that Jesus knew enough to tell John of Patmos what was to come before His 2nd Coming. Tons of signs to look for. And most of you have not seen them happen in front of your eyes. I am done at this thread for now, so speak all manner of things if it makes you feel good. Note that God sees all that you post through your guardian angels. Don't blame the messenger. It's okay, you all. I have had special guidance about this. So now, you can all deride me all you want!! Go for it.

Michael

:angel: :cloud9: :cloud9: :angel: :rapture: :thumb:

​

 

[daqq]

Yes, chair, that is TOTAL nonsense. Just wanted to let you know that I feel the same way, dude!

Remain Content And Joyful At The Coming Of The Lord Jesus,

Michael

Ha! I knew it, you also think the Scripture is nonsense because you have your own beloved paradigm outside of the Scripture to cherish.

Dear daqq,

You can't even spell my name right. It is MichAEl. It's okay though.

Ah, sorry, that was not intentional but I have in the past discussed similar things to these with another much like you whose name was Micheal1 or something of that sort. My mistake.

I agree with Chair and Michael.

Non is spewing nonsense.

Actually Chair, (and Desert Reign who agreed) and Michael said those things about myself and, more accurately, about all of the Scripture which I posted and referenced. If those who claim to be "Christians", (or even "Jewish") do not even believe the very writings which they claim to uphold and represent then no wonder people like Jose Fly feel justified in what they believe or do not see a need to believe. So far they are correct when it comes to this class of pseudo scholars and pseudo prophet nonanomanonim and Michaelim. :crackup:

Oh well, to each his or her own, have a nice thread.