Against abortion and against person-hood?

PureX

Well-known member
That's a big problem, though - the "compromise." What is it that the courts have compromised? Human lives.
And it's hardly a compromise, at that.
It's only a problem for those who can't accept other people's right to disagree with them. Like yourself.

Imagine my mother is trying to murder me.
Why? None of this has anything to do with murder except in your own mind. It's not murder in the minds of over a hundred fifty million other Americans. And it's not murder in the eyes of the courts prior to the 24th week of fetal development.

Repeating your position over and over, via different analogous scenarios, will not make it any more valid, and will not make me agree or disagree with you any more or less than I do. And your insisting on doing it anyway only further underscores the fact that you do not understand the essence of the disagreement, because you are incapable of respecting anyone else's right to disagree with you.

There is no room for compromise between the pro-choice and pro-life stances.
There is no room in your mind for anyone else's opinions, even when they are just as valid as your own. This is a flaw you really should address if you want to grow and mature as a human being.
 

glassjester

Well-known member
There is no room in your mind for anyone else's opinions, even when they are just as valid as your own. This is a flaw you really should address if you want to grow and mature as a human being.

I must think like you do in order to "mature as a human being"?
Spare me the lecture. And get off your high horse.

How can both opinions be valid? They are mutually exclusive.
Either abortion kills a person, or it doesn't.

Please explain how both stances can be "equally valid."
 

PureX

Well-known member
I must think like you do in order to "mature as a human being"?
No, but you must be willing to recognize when your opinion is JUST AN OPINION, and that other people have their own opinions, that can be just as valid as yours.

Religious Christians seem to have a very difficult time understanding that because they have adopted a religious dogma that's based on it's own presumed righteousness, and so doesn't allow for tolerance or diversity.

Spare me the lecture. And get off your high horse.
I'm just telling you how it is. And why the anti-abortion crowd can't seem to grasp the essence of the issue. All they can do is keep reiterating their own opinion as if it were an absolute truth. When it's not. While they keep trying to force everyone else to comply with their opinion.

How can both opinions be valid? They are mutually exclusive.
Either abortion kills a person, or it doesn't.
The difference of opinion is about what constitutes a 'person'. But you keep refusing to acknowledge that because to do so would expose your opinion for what it is: an opinion. As a result, all you can do is keep repeating your opinion over and over: that it's about "murdering babies".

Please explain how both stances can be "equally valid."
I have already done so many times on this thread and others. And I see no reason to think you will not continue to ignore any explanation I can give you.

There is little evidence to suggest that an early stage fetus is a "person". It does not yet have the biological capacity for the complex self-consciousness required to manifest a human 'person'. Nor can it exist independently of it's biological host. It exhibits only the POTENTIAL TO BECOME a human person. Thus it cannot reasonably be considered "murder" to end that potential before it manifests as an actual human person. And since it exists inside a woman's body, it is her choice whether or not to end that potential, or allow it to develop into a human person.

This opinion is honest, true, and reasonable.

The other opinion is that the potential to become a human person that is evident in a developing human fetus is and should be considered an actual human person, because it is unique and individual. And if we destroy it at any stage in it's development, we destroy that uniqueness, that 'individual', forever. to destroy the possibility of a person existing is the same as destroying an existing person. And therefor should be called, and treated, as 'murder".

This also an honest, true, and reasonable opinion.

Yet neither of these opinions can be proven beyond their own reasoning, because their reasoning is based mostly on subjective perception, and not much on fact. And that being the case, no one has establish the right to impose their opinion on everyone else. Which is why the courts chose a compromise.
 

Rusha

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
No, but you must be willing to recognize when your opinion is JUST AN OPINION, and that other people have their own opinions, that can be just as valid as yours..

My *opinion* is that ... it is always wrong to intentionally harm or kill a child or another innocent human being. The opinion that it is fine to kill or harm a child or another innocent human being is not "as valid" as my opinion.
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
Yes doser...identical to the "genetically unique human life-forms" which fail in aspiring to cute, mewling baby-hood 60-80% of the time.


not identical in mechanism of action - one is the deliberate ending of that life

the other is an act of God





like comparing the deliberate murder of an infant to the fact that many children die in infancy :nono:
 

quip

BANNED
Banned
not identical in mechanism of action - one is the deliberate ending of that life

the other is an act of God





like comparing the deliberate murder of an infant to the fact that many children die in infancy :nono:

Do you show as little concern for your next door neighbor?

Where lies the concern and contention that a gamete equals a person? Or is "life" simply incidental to your sense of moral righteousness concerning the act itself which ends said life?
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
Do you show as little concern for your next door neighbor?

not sure why you asked that :idunno:

Where lies the concern and contention that a gamete equals a person?

not interested in the semantic debate over what qualifies as a "person"

Or is "life" simply incidental to your sense of moral righteousness concerning the act itself which ends said life?

incidental? :nono:

on the contrary, it is key
 

quip

BANNED
Banned
not sure why you asked that :idunno:

It follows your (pretentious) valuation concerning LIFE. (the gametes' status thereof)



not interested in the semantic debate over what qualifies as a "person"

Of course you are...it's just not serving this particular argument of yours very well at the moment.

incidental? :nono:

on the contrary, it is key

You tell me: Is outlawing abortion more important than saving lives or is saving lives more important than outlawing abortion?
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
It follows your (pretentious) valuation concerning LIFE. (the gametes' status thereof)

and i'm not sure why you call my statement of scientific fact pretentious :idunno:

quip said:
Of course you are..

nope

if i was, i'd say so

quip said:
.it's just not serving this particular argument of yours very well at the moment.

my argument is this:
at conception a genetically unique human life is created



can you argue against that statement of scientific fact?


quip said:
You tell me: Is outlawing abortion more important than saving lives or is saving lives more important than outlawing abortion?

is preventing mothers from murdering their infants more important that saving the lives of those infants, or is saving the lives of those infants more important than preventing mothers from murdering their infants?
 

glassjester

Well-known member
Do you show as little concern for your next door neighbor?

Where lies the concern and contention that a gamete equals a person? Or is "life" simply incidental to your sense of moral righteousness concerning the act itself which ends said life?

You apparently do not know what a gamete is.
 

glassjester

Well-known member
Yes doser...identical to the "genetically unique human life-forms" which fail in aspiring to cute, mewling baby-hood 60-80% of the time.

At least be intellectually honest, please.

You are fully aware that a death by natural causes is not the same as homicide.
It's pointless to pretend otherwise.
 

quip

BANNED
Banned
At least be intellectually honest, please.

You are fully aware that a death by natural causes is not the same as homicide.
It's pointless to pretend otherwise.

Per your specific employment of terms ...of course. Though you've only implied a moral difference between the two, wherein lies this particular difference since both conclude with the death of the fetus.
 

glassjester

Well-known member
Yet neither of these opinions can be proven beyond their own reasoning, because their reasoning is based mostly on subjective perception, and not much on fact.


Abortion is the intentional killing of an innocent human.
That's fact. Not opinion.



Do you believe that all humans have a right to life?

As soon as we start deciding which humans do and do not have a right to be alive (whether it's based on age, sex, race, religion, size, or ability to perform certain tasks), then we deny the existence of human rights completely.
 

glassjester

Well-known member
Per your specific employment of terms ...of course. Though you've only implied a moral difference between the two, wherein lies this particular difference since both conclude with the death of the fetus.

Death by natural causes is not homicide.
Do you honestly disagree?
 

glassjester

Well-known member
I already agreed...the methods differ; conclusion is identical.

Now, defend the differences between the two.

I sincerely don't know what you're asking me to explain.
You say you know the difference between the two.
What is there to defend?
 
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