Acts 28:11 the Gemini twins

[Clete]

To what degree of stupidity must one INTENTIONALLY stoop to openly admit in public on a christian web forum the belief that there is more than one God? It is quite literally beyond my ability to comprehend.

Tambora, why don't you just go start a brand new religion and make stuff up out of whole cloth and just believe whatever the Hell strikes your fancy to believe? It would be more honest!

I Corinthians 8:4 Therefore concerning the eating of things offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but one.​

 

[JudgeRightly]

They are not just "mentioned" they are said to receive judgment from YHWH.
Something that does not exist cannot receive judgement from YHWH.

It's a figurative judgement, Tam.

God was fighting the gods that the egyptians had created as their deities, to show that He was more powerful than their gods.

Again, it doesn't mean that they actually exist, except as concepts, figments of the imagination.

Now, you should answer Clete's questions before I have to give him a warning for spamming...

(@Clete, I'm kidding, of course, haha!)

 

[Idolater]

Nah.
I imagine they had already heard of the healings Paul did, and that it was Paul's God that ensured a safe trip before.
Acts 28:8-10 & Act 27:22-24

But in boarding the vessel, did they engage in idolatry, in any way, shape or form? The ship was literally dedicated to idols /"other gods".

 

[Tambora]

But in boarding the vessel, did they engage in idolatry, in any way, shape or form? The ship was literally dedicated to idols /"other gods".

I would say no.
Idolatry is worshipping another god besides YHWH.

It's a figurative judgement, Tam.

God was fighting the gods that the egyptians had created as their deities, to show that He was more powerful than their gods.

Again, it doesn't mean that they actually exist, except as concepts, figments of the imagination.

If they were judged by YHWH (and they were) then they existed.
You can't pass judgement on what does not exist.

Now, you should answer Clete's questions before I have to give him a warning for spamming...

(@Clete, I'm kidding, of course, haha!)

Throwing confetti questions at me that are platitudes of nothingness with no meat on the bones is just flabby rhetoric and not worthy of interaction in a meaningful conversation.

 

[Clete]

Throwing confetti questions at me that are platitudes of nothingness with no meat on the bones is just flabby rhetoric and not worthy of interaction in a meaningful conversation.

They're quite real questions.

I knew you wouldn't answer them when I asked them. You couldn't begin to answer even one of them even though they answer themselves, which was the point.

Of course the gods that ancient peoples worshiped were not real gods. They were idols. The gods of Egypt were shown to be fake by Moses and Egypt's magicians were shown to be mere tricksters with no real supernatural powers whatsoever. The worshipers of Baal couldn't get their god off the toilet so as to set their sacrifice on fire and so Elijah called down fire from only real God that actually exists.

And nothing beats the Apostle Paul himself stating outright that "there is no other God but one".

Tambora, your position on this is heretical by any definition of the word.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Idolatry is worshipping another god besides YHWH.

Not quite.

Idolatry is placing something ABOVE God, and worshipping it as if it was God.

That's why we use the lower-case 'g,' because we recognize that it's NOT God, but is taking the place of God.

If they were judged by YHWH (and they were) then they existed.

Only as concepts, not actual entities.

You can't pass judgement on what does not exist.

You can pass judgement on a concept.

...confetti questions at me that are platitudes of nothingness with no meat on the bones is just flabby rhetoric and not worthy of interaction in a meaningful conversation.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

The fact that you can't answer them (won't?) shows that your position is irrational.

 

[Tambora]

Only as concepts, not actual entities.

I strongly disagree.
It makes no sense for YHWH to demand to have no other god but Him if no other god existed, and it makes no sense for YHWH to say He judged gods if no other gods existed.
There are many gods [elohim] but not all gods [elohim] are the same.
There is only one unique elohim that is YHWH the Most High.

You can pass judgement on a concept.

You can agree or disagree with a concept but that's not a judgement.
When anything receives judgement from YHWH it exists.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

Back at ya.

The fact that you can't answer them (won't?) shows that your position is irrational.

That logic is irrational.
There are many reasons one could choose not to answer a post.
That you want to pinhole my reason to suit your irrationality is no skin off my nose.
Clete, himself, has sometimes not replied to someone's posts, so would you say the same of him?
You haven't (won't). ----- see how that works ----

 

[Idolater]

I would say no.

I would hope not! I would hope, that Paul, while an Apostle, wouldn't commit even in the slightest way idolatry!
It's interesting to think though about the paradox between Acts 15 "abstain from pollutions of idols" and this part of Paul's story, and its bearing on choices we even have to make today. Should we shop at stores where ownership are atheists or something other than Christian? Are we in any way committing idolatry in doing so? If we hire someone who's a pagan, are we participating in any way in their idolatry?

Idolatry is worshipping another god besides YHWH.

It's why I think 1st Corinthians 10 is clarifying:

Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

This is clearly congruent with Acts 15. Does this mean though that you absolutely can't eat food sacrificed to idols, on an idol's temple's altar, by an idol's temple's priest? Apparently not:

Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:

... 27 If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.

So it's not so important that you must do due diligence, it's seems more rather like, just don't offend anyone if you do it, or, don't get caught doing it. Don't ask, "Was this sacrificed to Athena (or Zeus or Castor and Pollux)?" be told, "Why, yes it was," and then eat it (with people watching). In such case, do not eat it, because then you are knowingly partaking of the table of devils. Paul just says, "Don't ask."


But still, "Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils." What does that mean then? I think it means, Acts 15 basically. "Abstain from pollutions of idols" means do not commit formal idolatry, meaning what you said, "worshiping another god."

Don't openly commit formal idolatry. Boarding a ship consecrated to other gods does not constitute idolatry. Idolatry is sacrificing on and partaking of an idol's altar.

Among other things.

 

[Clete]

That logic is irrational.
There are many reasons one could choose not to answer a post.
That you want to pinhole my reason to suit your irrationality is no skin off my nose.
Clete, himself, has sometimes not replied to someone's posts, so would you say the same of him?
You haven't (won't). ----- see how that works ----

The difference is that if you could answer them, you totally would. Wild horses couldn't prevent you from putting me in my place if you had even the slightest opportunity.

And, yes, of course it completely makes perfect sense for God to demand that you place no other god before Him if He's the only God that actually exists. Make believe gods are an abomination. In fact, false religion is just a way for people to maintain unjust control over other people. It's just one of many forms of tyranny and just like all the other forms, its a very efficient way for people to end up very dead and in Hell.

 

[JudgeRightly]

I strongly disagree.

Too bad.

It makes no sense for YHWH to demand to have no other god but Him if no other god existed,

Sure it does.

If no other god exists, and if God is good (and He is), then worshipping anything other than Him as God would not only be harmful, but wrong. Thus, God, out of love for His creation, commands His creation to not worship other gods, because doing so is a denial of reality, and is harmful, and wrong.

and it makes no sense for YHWH to say He judged gods if no other gods existed.

Sure it does.

Because it's a figurative judgement. Every single one of the plagues brought upon Egypt was in direct relation to what the Egyptians called "gods." God "attacked" those "gods" by demonstrating His real control over the things the Egyptians thought their "gods" had control over, thus "judging" them (to be impotent).

There are many gods [elohim] but not all gods [elohim] are the same.
There is only one unique elohim that is YHWH the Most High.

Right, there is only ONE TRUE GOD. All others are fakes.

Get it?

You can agree or disagree with a concept but that's not a judgement.

Supra.

When anything receives judgement from YHWH it exists.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

Back at ya.

Usually when someone uses this in reply to me telling them "saying it doesn't make it so" it's because they don't realize that they just made a claim without evidence, and thus, could rationally be dismissed without evidence.

This is the case here, as well.

That logic is irrational.

Wrong.

There are many reasons one could choose not to answer a post.

Most are dishonest.

That you want to pinhole my reason to suit your irrationality is no skin off my nose.

There is nothing irrational about Clete's or my questions or beliefs.

Clete, himself, has sometimes not replied to someone's posts, so would you say the same of him?

No, I would not, because usually when Clete does it, it's because the person who asked him the question was being dishonest with it.

You haven't (won't). ----- see how that works ----

And I just proved you wrong.

See how that works?

 

[Tambora]

I would hope not! I would hope, that Paul, while an Apostle, wouldn't commit even in the slightest way idolatry!
It's interesting to think though about the paradox between Acts 15 "abstain from pollutions of idols" and this part of Paul's story, and its bearing on choices we even have to make today. Should we shop at stores where ownership are atheists or something other than Christian? Are we in any way committing idolatry in doing so? If we hire someone who's a pagan, are we participating in any way in their idolatry?


It's why I think 1st Corinthians 10 is clarifying:

Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

This is clearly congruent with Acts 15. Does this mean though that you absolutely can't eat food sacrificed to idols, on an idol's temple's altar, by an idol's temple's priest? Apparently not:

Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:

... 27 If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.

So it's not so important that you must do due diligence, it's seems more rather like, just don't offend anyone if you do it, or, don't get caught doing it. Don't ask, "Was this sacrificed to Athena (or Zeus or Castor and Pollux)?" be told, "Why, yes it was," and then eat it (with people watching). In such case, do not eat it, because then you are knowingly partaking of the table of devils. Paul just says, "Don't ask."


But still, "Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils." What does that mean then? I think it means, Acts 15 basically. "Abstain from pollutions of idols" means do not commit formal idolatry, meaning what you said, "worshiping another god."

Don't openly commit formal idolatry. Boarding a ship consecrated to other gods does not constitute idolatry. Idolatry is sacrificing on and partaking of an idol's altar.

Yeppers.
Paul indicates it is good to strive to be peaceful with all men without crossing the line into idolatry of worshiping any other elohim [god] but YHWH.
Paul entered a lot of places that worshipped other gods but stayed true to YHWH.
And in those places he would express that they were worshipping flunky gods and there was one that was superior to all others (YHWH).

Daniel was another good example, as it was determined by YHWH that he and many of his kinsmen were to be carried away and reside in Babylon but never worship any other god but YHWH.
Daniel was respectful and even helpful to the king of Babylon without crossing the line into idolatry and even showed the king that YHWH was superior when the king's dream was interpreted.

Joseph living in Egypt is another example of being respectful and helpful to an idolatrous nation without crossing the line.

 

[Clete]

I wonder what it is that makes someone want to cling to a belief that virtually no one else in the entire Christian world believes in spite of not being able to respond to scripture that directly contradicts it nor answer even one of several common sense questions about it?

What possible motive could account for it? What possible benefit could conceivably be derived?

It genuinely makes no sense to me.

 

[Tambora]

Some prefer to believe that the spirit entities we wrestle against don't really exist either and are just the result of a primitive superstitious imagination.

 

[Clete]

Some prefer to believe that the spirit entities we wrestle against don't really exist either and are just the result of a primitive superstitious imagination.

The difference being that Christians base their theological beliefs, including those concerning spirit entities, on biblical evidence and we don't rightly stiffen our necks in order to cling to the idea that mythological beings must be real in direct opposition to that biblical evidence.

Have you ever spent any time at all reading about Zeus, Apollo and the rest of the ancient Greek gods? Their actions, in many cases are completely asinine nonsense that no real being could actually do. No one, for example, ever turned to stone because they accidentally caught a glimpse of Medusa. Pan did not create the pan flute from the remains of Syrinx after her sister turned her into a reed. The goddess Aphrodite wasn't spawned from the waters when Cronos threw his Father's (Uranus) freshly castrated genitals into the sea. Zeus did not sew his premature son, Dionysus, into his thigh until he could be born and survive and then have him raised as a girl so as to hide the male child from his Hera (his wife). And that's just four of the ridiculous things from the Greek pantheon of gods. There are thousands of pagan gods from throughout history that make the Greek gods look positively plausible.

The other thing you should consider is that there is no profit in promoting mythical gods to reality status. It doesn't work. In fact, it backfires because fantasy and make-believe cannot be made real. Its the same principle at work when morons try to give animals the rights that only rightly belong to human beings. The result is not to elevate animals but to degrade humans. Likewise, rather than elevating mythical gods, what you end up doing is demoting the real God to the status of myth.

The whole notion is heresy from every conceivable direction. There is no wisdom in it whatsoever. Do yourself a favor and drop it like a hot rock. You cannot hope to gain anything by doing otherwise.

Clete

 

[Tambora]

The difference being that Christians base their theological beliefs, including those concerning spirit entities, on biblical evidence and we don't rightly stiffen our necks in order to cling to the idea that mythological beings must be real in direct opposition to that biblical evidence.

The biblical evidence is that there are indeed other gods that YHWH passes judgement on and that you should not worship and serve or make an idol of.
Stiffening one's neck against that biblical evidence is a poor choice to make.

Have you ever spent any time at all reading about Zeus, Apollo and the rest of the ancient Greek gods? Their actions, in many cases are completely asinine nonsense that no real being could actually do.

You mean things like be in a whirlwind, ride a throne chariot through the clouds, turn a human being into a pillar of salt, turn a stick into a serpent, cause a flood, be in a fire that does not burn the bush, rain down fire from the heavens, have a son through a human woman, die and resurrect, etc. etc. etc.
Hmmm.
A lot of people today would call belief in such things implausible foolish primitive mythological superstition.

 

[Right Divider]

The biblical evidence is that there are indeed other gods that YHWH passes judgement on and that you should not worship and serve or make an idol of.

Can you please provide this scripture?

 

[Hoping]

The biblical evidence is that there are indeed other gods that YHWH passes judgement on and that you should not worship and serve or make an idol of.
Stiffening one's neck against that biblical evidence is a poor choice to make.



You mean things like be in a whirlwind, ride a throne chariot through the clouds, turn a human being into a pillar of salt, turn a stick into a serpent, cause a flood, be in a fire that does not burn the bush, rain down fire from the heavens, have a son through a human woman, die and resurrect, etc. etc. etc.
Hmmm.
A lot of people today would call belief in such things implausible foolish primitive mythological superstition.

If you are correct, and there are other gods, may we hear from one of them?
May we see one of them?

 

[Tambora]

Several scholars have written about the Divine Assembly or Divine Council because scripture uses both terms (among others).
It describes the time in which Elohim/God [ie. YHWH] met with other elohim/gods for a council/court meeting in the spirit realm.

We see these type of council assemblies take place in verses such as:

Psalms 89:5-7 ESV​

(5) Let the heavens praise your wonders, O LORD, your faithfulness in the assembly of the holy ones!​

(6) For who in the skies can be compared to the LORD? Who among the heavenly beings is like the LORD,​

(7) a God greatly to be feared in the council of the holy ones, and awesome above all who are around him?​

​

​

​

Psalms 82:1 ESV​

A Psalm of Asaph.​

God [Elohim] has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods [elohim] he holds judgment:​

​

​

Job 1:6 ESV​

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.​

​

​

1 Kings 22:19-22 ESV​

And Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing beside him on his right hand and on his left;​

and the LORD said, ‘Who will entice Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ And one said one thing, and another said another.​

Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, saying, ‘I will entice him.’​

And the LORD said to him, ‘By what means?’ And he said, ‘I will go out, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And he said, ‘You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do so.’​

​

​

Daniel 7:9-10 ESV​

As I looked, thrones were placed, and the Ancient of Days took his seat; his clothing was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool; his throne was fiery flames; its wheels were burning fire.​

A stream of fire issued and came out from before him; a thousand thousands served him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him; the court sat in judgment, and the books were opened.​

Some of these heavenly hosts stayed loyal to YHWH and some had become rebels, such as the case in Ps 82 above where the gods [elohim] were being judged for not doing right and in Job 1 above that has the adversary [satan] at the meeting.

 

[Clete]

The biblical evidence is that there are indeed other gods that YHWH passes judgement on and that you should not worship and serve or make an idol of.
Stiffening one's neck against that biblical evidence is a poor choice to make.

Repeating yourself as though this nonsense hasn't been refuted multiple times doesn't make the arguments against you go away. It just makes you intellectually dishonest.

You mean things like be in a whirlwind, ride a throne chariot through the clouds, turn a human being into a pillar of salt, turn a stick into a serpent, cause a flood, be in a fire that does not burn the bush, rain down fire from the heavens, have a son through a human woman, die and resurrect, etc. etc. etc.

Hmmm.
A lot of people today would call belief in such things implausible foolish primitive mythological superstition.

Like I said, you idiotic belief on this issue does not have the effect of promoting make-believe gods into the realm of reality, it demotes the real God down to the level of make-believe and fantasy. Thank you for proving my point more eloquently than I ever could have without your help.

 

[Tambora]

Repeating yourself as though this nonsense hasn't been refuted multiple times doesn't make the arguments against you go away. It just makes you intellectually dishonest.

You have refuted nothing because it cannot be refuted that there are multiple times scripture speaks of other gods besides the Most High God, YHWH.

Like I said, you idiotic belief on this issue does not have the effect of promoting make-believe gods into the realm of reality, it demotes the real God down to the level of make-believe and fantasy. Thank you for proving my point more eloquently than I ever could have without your help.

You are delusional to think that because there are inferior gods that it could possibly demote the Most High God, YHWH, in any way.