• This is a new section being rolled out to attract people interested in exploring the origins of the universe and the earth from a biblical perspective. Debate is encouraged and opposing viewpoints are welcome to post but certain rules must be followed. 1. No abusive tagging - if abusive tags are found - they will be deleted and disabled by the Admin team 2. No calling the biblical accounts a fable - fairy tale ect. This is a Christian site, so members that participate here must be respectful in their disagreement.

About Viruses the Good and the Bad

Right Divider

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It is your opinion that living things are designed. You are entitled to your opinion of course, but science is no respecter of opinions, and I hope we might agree it really is a scientific question. Your opinion is wrong according to science.
You continue to say very silly things. It is quite obvious that the human body, as an example, is an incredible design.

Even one of your staunch atheist allies, Richard Dawkins, says that life has "the appearance of design". He's not alone in that accurate evaluation. Then he goes to great lengths to attempt to show how it's "not really design". He and you are blind.

And there are many mutations being eliminated from human and animal genomes.
So what? The built-in design has many ways to removing and limiting change.

Another creationist canard, usually born of pure ignorance. Evolution has no 'required' direction, not uphill nor any other.
Baloney! According to YOUR model, life began as a "simple single celled organism" and evolved to a man. That is most certainly what any intelligent human would call an uphill change.

I have no new theory, just a faint hope you might learn what the existing theories actually say.
I understand the existing theories just fine. They are anti-science.

No, they pretty much are. Unless you want to put careless exposure to mutagens in a different category to 'accident'.

But what does that have to do with your creationist strawman 'Far better than random accidents creating complex designs.'?
It's no straw-man. Apparently you don't know what that means either.

Accidents do not have creative power.

I assume by that Frenchman you intend to imply the (grossly unfair) stereotype of French people as likely to surrender.
Nope.

I appreciate your surrender on the claim that blonde hair would make a good example of the expression of hidden recessive alleles, and look forward to your explanation for how it is possible to have all possible traits in all 'kinds' hidden in a small foundation population when each individual can only carry a maximum of two alleles for any one trait.
Just as soon as you give a reasonable explanation of how dirt comes to life on its own.

Or, given that the global flood that necessitates your belief is proved not to have happened, perhaps I could look forward to your acknowledgement that creationism in general is all religious fundamentalist hot air.

I won't be holding my own hot air in anticipation of that.

Stuart
You're just a silly person. I've shown you your problem. Deal with it.
 

Stuu

New member
That is a subjective opinion of yours, not an actual fact. I think that the obersrvable natural word does suggest design....I would say that the opposite is true. It is only those who have already decided that there is no design, anti-religious extremists for example, who choose to ignore what the evidence actually shows.
It is pretty clear that life has become diverse in the way we see today by a process that involves generating random possibilities by chemical accidents, followed by a selection process that involves not surviving and (especially) not reproducing if your set of possibilities doesn't make you fit for those two activities. Look at the 'design' and it is clearly a blind process of finding what will 'just work'. It's looks like hindsight and not at all like foresight.

Of course if you are serious, you could tell me why you think it looks like foresight.

You you should remember that every great scientist throughout history that you can name (with one or two 20th century exceptions) have been people who believe in God.
Opinion again. No actual unambiguous evidence. Just as there is no good reason to believe there is design in nature, there is also no good reason to believe gods are real. Can you tell me what a god is? If so, can you tell me how a god does what gods do? I don't really know what you are talking about when you assert, without evidence, that a god exists. I don't think you really know either. I think you probably harbour doubts that it is even a thing.

Stuart
 

Right Divider

Body part
It is pretty clear that life has become diverse in the way we see today by a process that involves generating random possibilities by chemical accidents, followed by a selection process that involves not surviving and (especially) not reproducing if your set of possibilities doesn't make you fit for those two activities. Look at the 'design' and it is clearly a blind process of finding what will 'just work'. It's looks like hindsight and not at all like foresight.
Hilarious. Random accidents create highly complex interdependent systems. Your faith is amazing.
 

Stuu

New member
Hilarious. Random accidents create highly complex interdependent systems. Your faith is amazing.
I am amused that you take such delight in your own creationist strawman. Perhaps other religious fundamentalists take similar pleasure. They could PM you and thank you, perhaps.

Stuart
 

Stuu

New member
It is quite obvious that the human body, as an example, is an incredible design.
Indeed I agree it is not credible that it is design. If it was, you would fire the designer.

Even one of your staunch atheist allies, Richard Dawkins, says that life has "the appearance of design". He's not alone in that accurate evaluation. Then he goes to great lengths to attempt to show how it's "not really design". He and you are blind.
Well, I am in esteemed company, aren't I. Maybe the flaw in Richard Dawkins's otherwise superb writing is that he would give creationists the credit for having the capacity to concentrate for long enough to get through to the end of the essay. But it looks like you have at least reached the part that discusses the illusion of design. It is very well argued by him. What would be your criticism of his point about that? Or do you just not like him very much?

The built-in design has many ways to removing and limiting change.
So why did you mention mutation accumulation then?

Baloney! According to YOUR model, life began as a "simple single celled organism" and evolved to a man. That is most certainly what any intelligent human would call an uphill change.
I think we might be considering your model of who feels most special, not the model of which species are best adapted to their environments. We are something that the universe made that allows it to observe itself. But there never was a guarantee the we would evolve, or even that multicellular plants and animals would appear. Indeed humans were nearly wiped out by the effects of a volcanic eruption about 75,000 years ago. The population may have dropped as low as 3,000 individuals, dangerously close to unrecoverable numbers.

As for what species are at the top of this mythical evolutionary hill, all species alive today are equally 'well-evolved'. Perhaps those going extinct aren't doing quite as well as the rest.

I understand the existing theories just fine. They are anti-science.
You don't really know how evolution by natural selection works, or how genetics gives rise to inheritance. But then you don't feel any responsibility to represent facts accurately. The alt-facts are what you want for your religious lifestyle.

Stuu: But what does that have to do with your creationist strawman 'Far better than random accidents creating complex designs.'?
It's no straw-man. Apparently you don't know what that means either.
I could demonstrate my understanding by making some strawmen of your beliefs. Would that help?

Accidents do not have creative power.
Accidents most certainly do have creative power. But they don't have selective power.

Just as soon as you give a reasonable explanation of how dirt comes to life on its own.
You give up so easily.

You're just a silly person.
Thank you for your helpful feedback.

Stuart
 
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Right Divider

Body part
I am amused that you take such delight in your own creationist strawman.
Once again, you do not even know what a straw-man is.

It is YOUR theory that says that random chance has the ability to create complex interdependent systems. That's just anti-science and silly.

Perhaps other religious fundamentalists take similar pleasure. They could PM you and thank you, perhaps.

Stuart
You are a religious fundamentalist. It's just that your religion is wrong.
 

Right Divider

Body part
Indeed I agree it is not credible that it is design. If it was, you would fire the designer.
Mocking the Creator is a common trait among your type of religion.

Well, I am in esteemed company, aren't I. Maybe the flaw in Richard Dawkins's otherwise superb writing is that he would give creationists the credit for having the capacity to concentrate for long enough to get through to the end of the essay. But it looks like you have at least reached the part that discusses the illusion of design. It is very well argued by him. What would be your criticism of his point about that? Or do you just not like him very much?
No, it is NOT "very well argued".

Of course, that you think nature is "God" is your preferred religion. It's wrong, but you love it.

So why did you mention mutation accumulation then?
Because it's a problem for all life. Life is running down and not climbing up.

I think we might be considering your model of who feels most special, not the model of which species are best adapted to their environments. We are something that the universe made that allows it to observe itself. But there never was a guarantee the we would evolve, or even that multicellular plants and animals would appear. Indeed humans were nearly wiped out by the effects of a volcanic eruption about 75,000 years ago. The population may have dropped as low as 3,000 individuals, dangerously close to unrecoverable numbers.
More wild-eyed speculation.

As for what species are at the top of this mythical evolutionary hill, all species alive today are equally 'well-evolved'. Perhaps those going extinct aren't doing quite as well as the rest.
Man is clearly different from the rest. But your blindness does not allow you to see that.

You don't really know how evolution by natural selection works, or how genetics gives rise to inheritance. But then you don't feel any responsibility to represent facts accurately. The alt-facts are what you want for your religious lifestyle.
Natural SELECTION can only SELECT what ALREADY EXISTS. It is NOT a building force.

Facts are on the creationist side, not yours.

Stuu: But what does that have to do with your creationist strawman 'Far better than random accidents creating complex designs.'?

I could demonstrate my understanding by making some strawmen of your beliefs. Would that help?

Accidents most certainly do have creative power.
:rotfl:

But they don't have selective power.
:juggle:
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
This explains why there are, according to the Center for the Study of Global Christianity at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, now over 43,000 christian groups/sects/denominations. Each group thinks the others are, in some ways, wrong.

I just go one group further than you.You say 42,999 are wrong, and I say 43,000 are wrong.

Stuart

you win!

here's your prize:

Spoiler
hell

for eternity


have fun! :wave2:
 

Stuu

New member
Mocking the Creator is a common trait among your type of religion.
Is mocking imaginary friends any kind of problem? Perhaps it is a problem in the mind of the imaginary friend's friend.

No, it is NOT "very well argued".
But you're not going to tell us why, right?

Of course, that you think nature is "God" is your preferred religion. It's wrong, but you love it.
Well that was close to Einstein's concept of a god, a sort of metaphor for nature. I don't feel the metaphor adds very much to the lived experience.

Because it's a problem for all life. Life is running down and not climbing up.
So the mutations which are accumulating, but aren't accumulating because of the magical creationist correction mechanism, are causing a running down as can be clearly seen in...nothing at all? As opposed to a climbing up which is...no scientist's idea of evolution at all? The book of Revelation makes more sense than you do.

Man is clearly different from the rest.
Well I agree. Humans are really poor swimmers compared to penguins. Humans are really poor runners when you consider cheetahs. Humans have a weak sense of smell compared to wolves. None of our five senses is the keenest version to be found in the animal kingdom. We can anticipate the future, and make plans and designs and model abstract concepts, and those are probably unique to us. We also have the greatest ability to wreck our own environment (and wreck it for many other species). The differences aren't always good ones.

Natural SELECTION can only SELECT what ALREADY EXISTS. It is NOT a building force.
Thank you for demonstrating my point that you don't understand evolution by natural selection.

Stuart
 

Stuu

New member
you win!

here's your prize: (spoiler) hell for eternity


have fun! :wave2:(/spoiler)
I love it when religious fundamentalists' only answer is to make threats on behalf of their invisible friends.

Is that eternal punishment, or destruction for the rest of eternity that baby Jesus has brought into your religion? I gather it's a matter of opinion which one it means.

You might be interested to know that in the past I have made the effort to blaspheme intentionally, on the tiny chance that you are right about the existence of your vengeful god. I have been told that this means I have no chance of eternal life, as eternal existence sounds like the worst thing that could happen to anyone. It would rob a person of the final death that gives life meaning.

Stuart
 

Right Divider

Body part
Well that was close to Einstein's concept of a god, a sort of metaphor for nature. I don't feel the metaphor adds very much to the lived experience.
Who care what Einstein's concept of a god is?

So the mutations which are accumulating, but aren't accumulating because of the magical creationist correction mechanism, are causing a running down as can be clearly seen in...nothing at all? As opposed to a climbing up which is...no scientist's idea of evolution at all? The book of Revelation makes more sense than you do.
You make no sense whatsover.

Well I agree. Humans are really poor swimmers compared to penguins. Humans are really poor runners when you consider cheetahs. Humans have a weak sense of smell compared to wolves. None of our five senses is the keenest version to be found in the animal kingdom. We can anticipate the future, and make plans and designs and model abstract concepts, and those are probably unique to us. We also have the greatest ability to wreck our own environment (and wreck it for many other species). The differences aren't always good ones.
You're always proving that you're dumber than I can even imagine.

Thank you for demonstrating my point that you don't understand evolution by natural selection.

Stuart
So you think that natural SELECTION is some kind of creative force too? Your world is full of magic.
 

Stuu

New member
So you think that natural SELECTION is some kind of creative force too? Your world is full of magic.
You are welcome to go back and read the many times I have told you what I think about this. I think that evolution by natural selection from the variation produced by random mutation is the only explanation for the diversity of life on earth. You don't understand this explanation, or else for some reason you wish to lie about it. I'm not sure what value a religion has if it requires you to lie for it.

Stuart
 

Right Divider

Body part
You are welcome to go back and read the many times I have told you what I think about this. I think that evolution by natural selection from the variation produced by random mutation is the only explanation for the diversity of life on earth.
And you are welcome to hear me say, AGAIN, that that is scientifically absurd.

You don't understand this explanation, or else for some reason you wish to lie about it.
It's not a scientifically valid explanation. It is wishful conjecture that evolutionists wrap in all kinds of "scientific sounding" words to fool the gullible.

I'm not sure what value a religion has if it requires you to lie for it.
You should know. It's your religion that requires you to lie for it.

Mine just sticks to the facts.
 
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