Abortion is evil

[JudgeRightly]

1) If you knew for a fact the stowaway was never conscious,

Just because a person is unable to communicate with the people around him does not mean that he is not human, and doesn't have a consciousness.

The fact of the matter is that the baby in the womb, from the moment of conception, is made in the image of God.

does not have memories,

So you want to take away the possibility that the person will ever have memories on earth? How cruel can you be?

a name,

A person doesn't need a name to be human, made in the image of God, and innocent, unworthy of death.

a history,

Their history, so far, is that they were conceived in their mother's womb, and that they are alive to God, and have grown to the point they're at. You want to destroy that.

an identity,

Their identity is them. Their DNA. Their ties to their father and mother.

You want to eliminate that.

or loved ones

God loves them. That's enough.

You, on the other hand, want to prevent them from ever forming any other relationships.

AND he was draining resources of the flight

Blaming the victim, now, huh?

which made successful landing 5% less likely

We're not living in the dark ages anymore, Mary. 5% is well within the margin of error for most pregnancies.

and he possessed your dna

Then you should love them all the more! Not desire to kill them! That makes them FAMILY! Why do you want to kill your family?

mixed with DNA from the vilest person you ever knew,

That's not the fault of the child in the womb. The child is innocent of any wrongdoing, they are not vile in the least!

Why would you kill someone for the sin of their father?

would that make any difference at all in your likelihood of tolerating his ejection from the plane?

Your argument has nothing to stand on. No one should be killed simply because you don't consider them to be of any value. That makes you a murderer a heart, and you need to repent!

2) if someone left live sperm on your steering wheel

1) Don't be vulgar.
2) Sperm cells are just that, sperm cells. They're not genetically unique beings made in the image of God.

 

[Yorzhik]

1) If you knew for a fact the stowaway was never conscious, does not have memories, a name, a history, an identity, or loved ones AND he was draining resources of the flight which made successful landing 5% less likely and he possessed your dna mixed with DNA from the vilest person you ever knew, would that make any difference at all in your likelihood of tolerating his ejection from the plane?

Do any of these things make him not human? Do any of these things change him from innocent to guilty so you can start being violent?

2) if someone left live sperm on your steering wheel would you do everything in your power to help the sperm to ultimately achieve it's ultimate purpose?

Um... what? Is this an emotional outburst?

 

[Right Divider]

Um... what? Is this an emotional outburst?

She's getting trounced in this debate. That's got to be frustrating.

 

[Mary Contrary 999]

Do any of these things make him not human?

No.

QUOTE="Yorzhik, post: 1868968, member: 337"]
Do any of these things change him from innocent to guilty so you can start being violent?
[/QUOTE] No.

You see how I answered your questions directly? You avoid doing that. I gave you a pitch straight over the plate, and you still refused to answer. These questions simply highlight the flaws in your analogy. Like I said all analogies have flaws and it's wise to understand the limitations.

Um... what? Is this an emotional outburst?

Not at all. It's another question you refuse to answer. Perhaps you are emotional about it or have a childish awkwardness about the mechanics and realities of conception.

Human eggs are more similar to babies in their first four weeks after conception than they are to babies in their last for weeks before birth. Prove me wrong.

 

[Right Divider]

Half babies are more similar to babies in their first four weeks after conception than they are to babies in their last for weeks before birth. Prove me wrong.

What is that?

 

[Mary Contrary 999]

What is that?

Already fixed that for you. I was dumbing things down for my opponents but I might have went too far. They couldn't handle the word sperm.

 

[Right Divider]

Already fixed that for you. I was dumbing things down for my opponents but I might have went too far. They couldn't handle the word sperm.

A sperm is not a human being.
An egg is not a human being.
When the sperm combines with the egg a new human life begins. Every human life has value and is loved by God. No human life should be taken by murder.

 

[Right Divider]

They couldn't handle the word sperm.

BTW, why do you lower yourself to these types of lies?

 

[Mary Contrary 999]

BTW, why do you lower yourself to these types of lies?

I was not being inappropriate or emotional. I was just asking a question as a building block to a point and they reacted otherwise. I am making an assumption as to why. Do you have a better explanation?

 

[Right Divider]

I was not being inappropriate or emotional.

I asked about your lie when you said "They couldn't handle the word sperm.".

 

[Mary Contrary 999]

A sperm is not a human being.
An egg is not a human being.
When the sperm combines with the egg a new human life begins. Every human life has value and is loved by God. No human life should be taken by murder.

A sperm and an egg are unique and are a potential human being. I wish no human had their life taken unnecessarily.

 

[Mary Contrary 999]

I asked about your lie when you said "They couldn't handle the word sperm.".

And I answered you. They reacted wildly to sperm showing up unexpectedly on their property, more so than we discussed rape. Ironic, huh?

 

[Right Divider]

A sperm and an egg are unique and are a potential human being.

Terrible terminology. What I posted was much more correct. Here it is again:
A sperm is not a human being.
An egg is not a human being.
When the sperm combines with the egg a new human life begins.

I wish no human had their life taken unnecessarily.

And yet you are willing to allow some humans to be murdered.

 

[Right Divider]

And I answered you.

It's funny when people claim to have done things that they did not do.

They reacted wildly to sperm showing up unexpectedly on their property, more so than we discussed rape. Ironic, huh?

I saw no "wild reaction".

Are we reading the same thread?

 

[Yorzhik]

Do any of these things change him from innocent to guilty so you can start being violent?

No.

Then your compromise does not stand on good principle.

You see how I answered your questions directly? You avoid doing that. I gave you a pitch straight over the plate, and you still refused to answer. These questions simply highlight the flaws in your analogy. Like I said all analogies have flaws and it's wise to understand the limitations.

Even though I'm also OK with answering a question with a question if appropriate, the questions were rhetorical so they were answers themselves. So here are the answers directly so you can see it:
Since he is an innocent human you cannot throw him overboard regardless of his state of conscious, or his memories, whether he has a name or not, or if he has a history our not, or if he has an identity our not (although existence makes this impossible), or if he has loved ones or not, or if he was draining resources of the flight which made successful landing 5% less likely because life is worth that much, and whether or not he possessed your dna mixed with DNA from the vilest person you ever knew since our DNA does not force us to be guilty.

Um... what? Is this an emotional outburst?

Not at all. It's another question you refuse to answer. Perhaps you are emotional about it or have a childish awkwardness about the mechanics and realities of conception.

I'm not so sure. It seems a little outlandish to bring that up. Are you asking if I found sperm I have somehow suggested I should use it to impregnate someone with it?

Human eggs are more similar to babies in their first four weeks after conception than they are to babies in their last for weeks before birth. Prove me wrong.

I think you are right. So you can correctly say "When I was a blastocyst I was more similar to a human egg than a baby at delivery."

Why does that mean something to you?

Really though, the better discussion would be a response to post #74

 

[JudgeRightly]

You see how I answered your questions directly? You avoid doing that. I gave you a pitch straight over the plate, and you still refused to answer. These questions simply highlight the flaws in your analogy. Like I said all analogies have flaws and it's wise to understand the limitations.

It's another question you refuse to answer. Perhaps you are emotional about it or have a childish awkwardness about the mechanics and realities of conception.

Don't be a hypocrite.

Human eggs are more similar to babies in their first four weeks after conception than they are to babies in their last for weeks before birth. Prove me wrong.

The fact is that a human egg is not itself a human being, and there is a defining moment when a human being is conceived, when a sperm merges with an egg, that something more than the sum of its parts comes into existence.

 

[Idolater]

...You think OUR LORD will stay Judgement forever?

Even in the Old Testament He said of Sodom, "I will not destroy it for ten's sake." He was nothing if not reasonable. There's more than ten people just on TOL who aren't constantly flipping the LORD God the bird, so long as this is true, I do think He will stay His judgment, that's just based on Old Testament conditions. We're in the New Testament /Covenant times now. And we have tons more than just ten who aren't endlessly flipping Him off. He's extremely reasonable in His mercy, and that was in the Old Testament.

 

[Right Divider]

Even in the Old Testament He said of Sodom, "I will not destroy it for ten's sake." He was nothing if not reasonable. There's more than ten people just on TOL who aren't constantly flipping the LORD God the bird, so long as this is true, I do think He will stay His judgment, that's just based on Old Testament conditions.

This is another extremely bizarre theory. So you think that God is withholding His judgment because there are at least ten believers on TOL? Very weird idea.

We're in the New Testament /Covenant times now.

No, WE are not. WE (the body of Christ) are NOT Israel. The covenants (old and new) are between God and Israel. Jer 31:31, Heb 8:8

And we have tons more than just ten who aren't endlessly flipping Him off. He's extremely reasonable in His mercy, and that was in the Old Testament.

So God will not judge the world until there are only 9 believer? You have some really strange and silly ideas.

 

[Mary Contrary 999]

I'm not so sure. It seems a little outlandish to bring that up. Are you asking if I found sperm I have somehow suggested I should use it to impregnate someone with it?

I think you are right. So you can correctly say "When I was a blastocyst I was more similar to a human egg than a baby at delivery."

Why does that mean something
post #74

I just wanted to know if you would treat other forms of human reproductive substrates with any kind of care or reverence.

Of course having complete set of DNA is a meaningful point of division to make but does degree of similarity not have any meaning? Can't a case be made that developmental level suggests there could be made a division in the degree of reverence that need be afforded during gestation as well?

I for one have no problem with a day after pill, but hold that partial birth abortion be punished like any murder.

 

[Idolater]

I for one have no problem with a day after pill

No kidding.
You don't say.
Why am I not surprised.

Plain.