A Walk Through Revelation

[fzappa13]

Some time ago I made mention of a previous effort by some of us here at TOL to walk through Revelation one chapter at a time. We did this at the behest of a 14 year old girl that was trying to come to grips with what many consider the most difficult book in the Bible to understand. I'm sure no one who has spent any amount of time posting on Christian forums would be surprised to learn this effort never made it's way to completion for all the usual reasons.

Tambora has mentioned an interest in such an effort and the idea still has some appeal to me as well. So, we would like to initiate another attempt at this endeavor. By way of disclaimer I should note that the two things we have in common in this effort is that neither of us is approaching this from a denominational perspective and we both have an appreciation of just how much of Revelation has an analog in the Old Testament. Beyond that I have no idea what she's going to offer and visa versa.

The intent here is to share what we've gleaned in the way of understanding what this book offers without demanding anyone share that perspective. This is a good faith attempt to better understand this book by hearing and considering the perspectives of each other and any one else that would like to participate in this effort in the same spirit.

 

[JudgeRightly]

https://kgov.com/revelation is a good place to start.

 

[Tambora]

Some time ago I made mention of a previous effort by some of us here at TOL to walk through Revelation one chapter at a time. We did this at the behest of a 14 year old girl that was trying to come to grips with what many consider the most difficult book in the Bible to understand. I'm sure no one who has spent any amount of time posting on Christian forums would be surprised to learn this effort never made it's way to completion for all the usual reasons.

Tambora has mentioned an interest in such an effort and the idea still has some appeal to me as well. So, we would like to initiate another attempt at this endeavor. By way of disclaimer I should note that the two things we have in common in this effort is that neither of us is approaching this from a denominational perspective and we both have an appreciation of just how much of Revelation has an analog in the Old Testament. Beyond that I have no idea what she's going to offer and visa versa.

The intent here is to share what we've gleaned in the way of understanding what this book offers without demanding anyone share that perspective. This is a good faith attempt to better understand this book by hearing and considering the perspectives of each other and any one else that would like to participate in this effort in the same spirit.

Wonderful!
I look forward to all the viewpoints that can be shared in each chapter.

 

[fzappa13]

1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

2Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.


I find it both interesting and telling that Jesus would give the revelation he was given by God to John. In giving this revelation to John, Jesus once again gave evidence of the unique nature of His relationship with the man who referred to himself as "the Apostle whom Jesus loved." John's writings stand in stark contrast to the other Apostles in style, imagery and content. I think that part of the reason for this is that he understood what he was looking at in Jesus on a level his fellow Apostles did not. Hence, if they had what they thought was a touchy question for Jesus they would offer it to John to pass along. Having said that, John's unique style seems to be largely absent in this book. He seems to pretty much be relating an unvarnished message here. It's also interesting to note that, just as God used Aaron to speak for Him through Moses, so Jesus used John to speak for Him through an angel.

3Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Not to jump ahead but a similar blessing is offered at both the beginning and end of this book. One would hope that any and all would avail themselves of this blessing.

 

[Tambora]

Chapter 1

Biblical scholar, Dr. Sean McDonough, wrote an interesting commentary on this portion of Rev 1:4 [who is and who was and who is to come]in his published dissertation titled YHWH at Patmos: Revelation 1:4 in its Hellenistic and Early Jewish Setting.

Here's the verse:

Revelation 1​

(4) John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne,​

He, like most scholars, are aware that John is alluding to the "I am" statement in Exodus 3:14 for the who is portion, but the Exodus verse does not have who was and who is to come.
His research lead him to believe that John is combining verses from different books of the Bible to make a single theological point to his audience of those in the 7 churches of the ancient Anatolian region.
Greek pagan god worship was rampant in that region with Zeus as their most high god with many temples and shrines dedicated to him.

McDonough also, like many other scholars, are aware that John alludes to more OT scripture in the book of Revelation that all the other NT books combined, but never actually quotes an OT verse, and that many times John will combine verses from varying books to make one statement.

He suggests that in Rev 1:4 John is combining Exodus 3:14 with Isaiah 43:10.

Isaiah 43​

10 You are my witnesses, declares the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.​

​

is​

was​

will be​

John does this because most people in that region would be aware of the Zeus worship going on there and what those worshippers believed about Zeus.
McDonough documents in his book that this (is, was, will be) was also a title used of Zeus and he quotes a poem that tells of the song the Oracles at the city of Dodona would sing at Zeus' shrine.

As they sang at Dodona, “Zeus was, Zeus is, and Zeus will be.”​

So John wants to point out that those pagans in the region where Zeus worship is rampant are worshipping the wrong most high god and that it is YHWH alone that is the real Most High God.
It's kinda like a subtle sucker punch to Zeus right in his own neighborhood.

Here is a pic of some of the ancient ruins at Dodona:

 

[Tambora]

Chapter 1

Rev 1:1 alludes to Daniel 2:28-29, 49

Revelation 1
(1) The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,


Daniel 2
(28) but there is a God in heaven who reveals mysteries, and he has made known to King Nebuchadnezzar what will be in the latter days. Your dream and the visions of your head as you lay in bed are these:
(29) To you, O king, as you lay in bed came thoughts of what would be after this, and he who reveals mysteries made known to you what is to be.
.
.
(45) just as you saw that a stone was cut from a mountain by no human hand, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold. A great God has made known to the king what shall be after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation sure.”

 

[fzappa13]

1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
2Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Another interesting aspect of this passage is what some point to as the immediacy of the events related in this book. While there are other passages that come later in this book that give a much clearer indication of the timing of these events I would here like to offer a passage in Hosea that appears to address the matter more directly.

5:14 For I will be unto Ephraim as a lion, and as a young lion to the house of Judah: I, even I, will tear and go away; I will take away, and none shall rescue him.
15 I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.
6:1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.

Armed with the knowledge gleaned from 2Peter 3:8 and Psa 90:4 that a 1000 years is as a day to the Lord, this passage would appear to anticipate a roughly 2000 year gap between the Lord's departure and His return.

 

[Right Divider]

Armed with the knowledge gleaned from 2Peter 3:8 and Psa 90:4 that a 1000 years is as a day to the Lord, this passage would appear to anticipate a roughly 2000 year gap between the Lord's departure and His return.

That is NOT what the scripture says.

2Pet 3:8-9 (AKJV/PCE)​

(3:8) But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. (3:9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.​

The point of that passage is NOT a "time equation", but it is talking about the Lord's patience.

The previous verses to that were talking about the Lord's coming judgment and these verses explain His delay.

Ps 90:4 (AKJV/PCE)​

(90:4) For a thousand years in thy sight [are but] as yesterday when it is past, and [as] a watch in the night.​

That verse is also talking how time is not the same for God as it is for us humans.

 

[fzappa13]

Wonderful!
I look forward to all the viewpoints that can be shared in each chapter.

Me too.

 

[fzappa13]

Before leaving the subject of days and millennia it is worth noting that, at the time of Jesus's advent, approximately 4000 years (or 4 days if you're God) had passed and adding to that the 2 days spoken of in Hosea we then come to the 7th day or THE Sabbath God has prepared for man and I think it instructive, for those that can receive it, that this Sabbath is itself 1000 years in duration. At this point one should hopefully begin to have an appreciation of the institution of the week in our time keeping and its prophetic significance.

 

[Right Divider]

Before leaving the subject of days and millennia it is worth noting that, at the time of Jesus's advent, approximately 4000 years (or 4 days if you're God) had passed and adding to that the 2 days spoken of in Hosea we then come to the 7th day or THE Sabbath God has prepared for man and I think it instructive, for those that can receive it, that this Sabbath is itself 1000 years in duration. At this point one should hopefully begin to have an appreciation of the institution of the week in our time keeping and its prophetic significance.

You are going to double down on this silliness?

2Pet 3:8 (AKJV/PCE)​

(3:8) But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. ​

Stop ignoring the ENTIRE verse. It's talking about God's patience and His delay in judging the world.

So is a day a thousand years or is a thousand years a day? (Hint: neither),

 

[Tambora]

Me too.

I know you do and I'm glad about that.
It's refreshing.

 

[Tambora]

1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
2Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Another interesting aspect of this passage is what some point to as the immediacy of the events related in this book. While there are other passages that come later in this book that give a much clearer indication of the timing of these events I would here like to offer a passage in Hosea that appears to address the matter more directly.

5:14 For I will be unto Ephraim as a lion, and as a young lion to the house of Judah: I, even I, will tear and go away; I will take away, and none shall rescue him.
15 I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.
6:1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.

Armed with the knowledge gleaned from 2Peter 3:8 and Psa 90:4 that a 1000 years is as a day to the Lord, this passage would appear to anticipate a roughly 2000 year gap between the Lord's departure and His return.

Before leaving the subject of days and millennia it is worth noting that, at the time of Jesus's advent, approximately 4000 years (or 4 days if you're God) had passed and adding to that the 2 days spoken of in Hosea we then come to the 7th day or THE Sabbath God has prepared for man and I think it instructive, for those that can receive it, that this Sabbath is itself 1000 years in duration. At this point one should hopefully begin to have an appreciation of the institution of the week in our time keeping and its prophetic significance.

It could very well be that the end will come at the 6000 year mark from creation since scripture does make a distinct point concerning the 6 days of toil followed by the 7th day of rest.
Or not.
I just don't know.

But whether that is the exact measure of time or not I can say that scripture does indicate that good times and bad times (blessings and curses) have happened throughout history, a cycle repeating itself just as the Sabbath Days and Sabbath Years kept repeating.
So at the very least those cycles of Sabbaths were a reminder for us to keep the faith through thick and thin until that final day of blessing arrives.

 

[fzappa13]

It could very well be that the end will come at the 6000 year mark from creation since scripture does make a distinct point concerning the 6 days of toil followed by the 7th day of rest.
Or not.
I just don't know.

But whether that is the exact measure of time or not I can say that scripture does indicate that good times and bad times (blessings and curses) have happened throughout history, a cycle repeating itself just as the Sabbath Days and Sabbath Years kept repeating.
So at the very least those cycles of Sabbaths were a reminder for us to keep the faith through thick and thin until that final day of blessing arrives.

I would suggest that all of God's holy days and ordinances are prophetic and imparting their teachings is their primary purpose. When we change the Passover to Easter, move the Sabbath to Sunday and trade God's holy days for our own (holidays) we rob ourselves of the ability to receive the lessons they were intended to teach and are the poorer for it.

 

[fzappa13]

4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

There is a lot packed into these three verses and I offer them here together because they form a singular thought that is punctuated by an "Amen" by John. His salutation is to "the seven churches which are in Asia." Not to get ahead of ourselves here but I would point out that as these "churches" become enumerated later there is no mention of Galatia or any other "church" in Asia. Why just these 7 and why just Asia? I would suggest that this is one of several indicators that Jesus's intended audience is much broader than would be indicated by this initial salutation and that the theme of "7s" has a spiritual application that unfolds across the course of this book.

 

[Tambora]

I would suggest that this is one of several indicators that Jesus's intended audience is much broader than would be indicated by this initial salutation and that the theme of "7s" has a spiritual application that unfolds across the course of this book.

Agreed.
Some like to refer to the biblical number 7 with "perfect", but I don't think that can be accurate since the beast has 7 heads and we wouldn't consider those 7 heads to be "perfect".
I think it is more in reference to a "united" front.
The 7 for the churches would be for all in the kingdom of God and the 7 heads for the beast would be for all in the kingdoms that come against the Lamb's kingdom.

 

[fzappa13]

Agreed.
Some like to refer to the biblical number 7 with "perfect", but I don't think that can be accurate since the beast has 7 heads and we wouldn't consider those 7 heads to be "perfect".
I think it is more in reference to a "united" front.
The 7 for the churches would be for all in the kingdom of God and the 7 heads for the beast would be for all in the kingdoms that come against the Lamb's kingdom.

... and, not to belabor the point but, 7 also harkens back to the week mentioned previously. I'm pretty sure God is trying to teach us something with numbers but, unfortunately, numbers are not my strong suit. Words I readily remember for a lifetime but, as a carpenter, I have to chant a measurement on my way to cut lumber so as not to lose it. Any distraction before that and I have to remeasure.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Threes are everywhere...

 

[fzappa13]

4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

Though sevens are scattered all across the Bible it is in Revelation that we first hear of the seven spirits which are before God's throne. This is one of the things not found in the Old Testament in those terms but that is contained in this book and might well be said to be one of the reasons for the title of this book. This information is indeed a "revelation" for those familiar with the rest of the Bible. The repeated references to these spirits in this book is one of it's hallmarks and remains pretty much avoided by denominational theology. I suspect that is because there has been so much verbiage and effort offered in the attempt to champion the notion of a "triune God" that it leaves no room for the idea of these seven spirits being a part of that arrangement.

 

[fzappa13]

Agreed.
Some like to refer to the biblical number 7 with "perfect", but I don't think that can be accurate since the beast has 7 heads and we wouldn't consider those 7 heads to be "perfect".
I think it is more in reference to a "united" front.
The 7 for the churches would be for all in the kingdom of God and the 7 heads for the beast would be for all in the kingdoms that come against the Lamb's kingdom.

Yes, when you follow the 7's you find no small amount of evil and/or suffering. Suffice to say that calling 7 the number of perfection is a little limited in it's perspective though it has been said in the Bible that we are perfected in our suffering, so, maybe there is something to that.