SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
It amazes me that anyone could think such a thing is from God.
A medical doctor witnesses an icon of Mary weeping tears -- has no doubts.
- Thread starter vanityofvanitys
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It amazes me that anyone could think such a thing is from God.
HisServant
New member
Some people just have to see something with their own eyes to believe it.. because their faith is so weak.
vanityofvanitys
New member
Your theological gymnastics interpretations on the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ in John 6 and elsewhere are so twisted and desperate they speak of an end in search of a means. It is painful to even listen to.
Protestants are so eager to say the Church was fine until Constantine made it a lawful religion in Rome in 313 a.d. And yet, the Church did not even finally codify the Bible until 325 a.d. So when did God abandon the Catholic Church as you so wish were the case? And for what, another 1200 years until Luther showed up? All those Catholics up until then were not Christian? God was letting all the prayers and devotions be a tool for the devil? And all the holy saints instructing the Catholic Church during those years were the enemy? Where is the sense in anything you declare?
The authority of the Church and the Holy Spirit leading the Church. The Church was led by the Holy Spirit in determining which books would be the inspired word of God The Holy Spirit did not then leave the Church but revealed much more in the sacraments and teachings.
Matthew 16:
“Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.”
John 16:12-13
"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth.
2nd Thessalonians 2:15: "Stand firm Brethren and safeguard all traditions whether written or word of mouth."
1 Timothy 3:15 I write so that you will know how [l]one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.
Mark 9: 38-40
John said to Him, “Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we tried to prevent him because he was not following us.” But Jesus said, “Do not hinder him, for there is no one who will perform a miracle in My name, and be able soon afterward to speak evil of Me. For he who is not against us is for us.
John 20: 21-23: In his very first Resurrection appearance our Lord gives this awesome power to his Apostles with the words: “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” How could they forgive sins if they were not confessed? They could not. This authority comes through the gift of the Holy Spirit which precedes it. You think anyone who says they are Christian has the authority to forgive sins or hold them bound? No, surely not. It is given to the Church and only to those ordained, the apostles and their successors.
From --> http://www.catholicfaithandreason.org/confession-of-sins---how-biblical-is-it.html
Nor is the Bible the only witness. We also have the Early Fathers of the Church, who were defenders of the faith in the early Church, often giving their blood in martyrdom for the faith they defended and serving Christ faithfully despite persecution and dangers. We see the evidence of confession of sins in one of the oldest documents from the early Church, the so-called Didache which is the teaching of the Lord to the twelve Apostles, mentioned by Bishop Eusebius, the father of Church history, in Ecclesiastical History, his history of early Christianity. The Didache was divided into three parts, first the "Two Ways" (the Way of Life and Death); second, the rituals dealing with Baptism, Communion and fasting; third, a concluding chapter dealing with Ministry.
"Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life. . . . On the Lord’s Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure" (Didache 4:14, 14:1 [A.D. 70-90]).
Other Early Church Fathers: Tradition (properly understood) is a valuable as the Word.
John Chrysostom (b. 350 A.D.):
"Paul did not instruct Timothy in his duty through letters alone, but also through the spoken word. He shows this, both in many other passages, as where he says, 'whether by word or our epistle' (2 Thess. 2:15), and especially [in 2 Tim. 1:13-14]. Let us not, therefore, suppose that Paul spoke anything imperfectly that was related to doctrine. For he delivered many things to Timothy without writing. He reminds him of these when he says, 'Hold fast the form of sound words, which you have heard from me.'"
"'So then, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word, or by epistle of ours' (2 Thess. 2:15). Hence it is manifest that they did not deliver all things by epistle, but many things also unwritten, and in like manner both the one and the other are worthy of credit. Therefore let us think the Tradition of the Church also worthy of credit."
St. Jerome (b. 342 A.D.):
"For many other observances of the Churches, which are due to Traditions, have acquired the authority of the written law."
Vincent of Lerins (d. 450 A.D.):
"But here someone perhaps will ask, Since the canon of Scripture is complete, and sufficient of itself for everything, and more than sufficient, what need is there to join with it the authority of the Church's interpretation? For this reason---because, owing to the depth of Holy Scripture, all do not accept it in one and the same sense, but one understands its words in one way, another in another... Therefore, it is necessary, on account of so great intricacies of such various error, that the rule for the right understanding of the prophets and apostles should be framed in accordance with the standard of ecclesiastical and Catholic interpretation."
vanityofvanitys
New member
Still afraid to take on my questions above with direct answers I see. I wonder why. As it is, I could ask you hundreds more, but what should I expect, the same non-response?
HisServant
New member
And all of your responses are from after the Romanization of Christianity... Rome hijacked things and made it compatible with its prior religion... Mithraism, which it then tried to erase from history so that future christians would have a hard time comparing the two.
Sacraments and real presence are both from Mithraism.
As far as your quote about written and oral... you have totally lost the concept of time and the FACT that scriptures were written at different times.
And as far as Peter being the rock.. that is another problematic issue, since the core of Jesus ministry is written in all 4 gospels and only ONE contains that verse... therefore it is of MINOR importance to christians.
But based on Pagan Roman traditions.. having a Pope was VERY important to them. Anyhow, your list of papal succession has holes you could fly a 747 through during the first 300 years... and we know the RCC shill they hired to write the church history was a liar, and he even admitted it.
The simple fact that according to the Old Testament, the Roman empire is cursed for all eternity... why would God go back on his promise and found his church there?... in the heart of cursed enemy territory?
Simon bar Jonah is a Hebrew address and peter is a Hebrew word. Jesus addressed all the group as peter.
:chuckle:
vanityofvanitys
New member
Yes, sure. He made everyone the head of the Church. And so on. I guess even the apostles got it wrong right from the start.
I will not bother with my own explanations. If you really cared to know the truth you might find this rather in depth and intellectual explanation of "Peter the Rock" of real importance. I posted it once and almost no one wanted to take the time. That is not my concern.
http://www.catholic.com/blog/tim-staples/peter-the-rock
HisServant
New member
Christ is the head of his church and rules through those he has indwelt through the Holy Spirit... no one man can clam to speak for him.
Which is why the early church had a Presbyterian form of government and elders were called presbyters. There was no hierarchy... their job was to affirm the calling of the Holy Spirit within the flock and weed out those that weren't gifted with the Holy Spirit.
He :granite: lives according to the flesh and is going to die. I live according to the Sprit and am going to live. Ro 8:13, Heb 12:14, 1 Co 6:9-10
God's Truth
New member
Statues and Idols
There are many scriptures telling us not to make statues, not to have idols. Here is a passage to show why NOT to make statues. Deuteronomy 4:15-17 You saw no form of any kind the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, 16 so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, 17 or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air,
2 Kings 18:1 In the third year of Hoshea son of Elah king of Israel, Hezekiah son of Ahaz king of Judah began to reign. 2 He was twenty-five years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem twenty-nine years. His mother’s name was Abijah daughter of Zechariah. 3 He did what was right in the eyes of the LORD, just as his father David had done. 4 He removed the high places, smashed the sacred stones and cut down the Asherah poles. He broke into pieces the bronze snake Moses had made, for up to that time the Israelites had been burning incense to it. (It was called Nehushtan.)
The Israelites burned incense to the bronze snake/the Catholic priest burns incense to the crucifix, and any relics or images of saints. If the bronze snake that Moses had made was broke into pieces because the Israelites had been burning incense to it (see 2 Kings 18:1-4), then why is it okay for the Catholic priests to bow to and incense the crucifix?
Exodus 20: 4 “You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.
Leviticus 26:1"'You must not make for yourselves idols, so you must not set up for yourselves a carved image or a pillar, and you must not place a sculpted stone in your land to bow down before it, for I am the LORD your God.
No longer bow down to the work of your hands (see Micah 5:13)
Hosea 14:8. Isaiah 44:9. God’s word warns us no idols.
1 John 5:21 Dear children, keep yourself from idols.
1 Thessalonians 1:9 for they themselves report what kind of reception you gave us. They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God.
There are many scriptures telling us not to make statues, not to have idols. Here is a passage to show why NOT to make statues. Deuteronomy 4:15-17 You saw no form of any kind the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, 16 so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, 17 or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air,
2 Kings 18:1 In the third year of Hoshea son of Elah king of Israel, Hezekiah son of Ahaz king of Judah began to reign. 2 He was twenty-five years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem twenty-nine years. His mother’s name was Abijah daughter of Zechariah. 3 He did what was right in the eyes of the LORD, just as his father David had done. 4 He removed the high places, smashed the sacred stones and cut down the Asherah poles. He broke into pieces the bronze snake Moses had made, for up to that time the Israelites had been burning incense to it. (It was called Nehushtan.)
The Israelites burned incense to the bronze snake/the Catholic priest burns incense to the crucifix, and any relics or images of saints. If the bronze snake that Moses had made was broke into pieces because the Israelites had been burning incense to it (see 2 Kings 18:1-4), then why is it okay for the Catholic priests to bow to and incense the crucifix?
Exodus 20: 4 “You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.
Leviticus 26:1"'You must not make for yourselves idols, so you must not set up for yourselves a carved image or a pillar, and you must not place a sculpted stone in your land to bow down before it, for I am the LORD your God.
No longer bow down to the work of your hands (see Micah 5:13)
Hosea 14:8. Isaiah 44:9. God’s word warns us no idols.
1 John 5:21 Dear children, keep yourself from idols.
1 Thessalonians 1:9 for they themselves report what kind of reception you gave us. They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God.
HisServant
New member
Creflo Dollar would be proud!
Mary needs a jet.
Mary needs a jet.
vanityofvanitys
New member
and they become tourist attractions, that's whad id is -atrol:
You believe whatever you want. But don't you be putting pictures of Jesus or a dove or God the white bearded Father in your protestant picture books now.
The Catholic Church is clear that no statue is ever worshipped as an idol. None. As one saint put it long ago --- Statues and holy paintings are the gospels for the illiterate and the poor.
It inspires them to holy thoughts and prayers to the one true God.
Calling it venerate, doesn't change what it is, worshiping a statue/praying to one, burning incense to one (serving it)
God's Truth
New member
NO ONE should put any fake picture of Jesus.
There is no picture of Jesus.
I was raised Catholic and to this day have to fight off the false image of the Catholic's Jesus picture.
vanityofvanitys
New member
You're just some kind of "legalist" who lacks wisdom and charity. So even those protestants are doing something evil according to you if they show pictures of Jesus here or there. How sad.
You care only for your select group and think nothing of the billions that went before you and what inspired them to love God more. Especially when almost none could read.
And what happened to all those Catholics saying their rosaries and going to confession and mass before Luther showed up?
God's Truth
New member
Jesus says you nullify God's Word with your traditions.
Jesus says that tradition keeps man from God’s truth: Matthew 15:6-9 Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you: “‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.’”
Mark 7:8-9, 13 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.” And he said to them: “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! 13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”
HisServant
New member
There is no such thing as a picture of Jesus.
The Rosary didn't appear until 1214... so for most of the history of the RCC the rosary was unknown... and had only been practiced for 300 years when Luther came on the scene by a very small minority of RCC adherants because it wasn't very popular.
vanityofvanitys
New member
People who avoid direct questions are totally boring. And it speaks volumes, they isolate their beliefs in VERY SELECT Scripture passages which conform so comfortably with their lives only. They are totally afraid to confront more sticky questions and situations. Instead, run to the Bible and find those verses again.
I ask you simple questions. You simply will not answer. Maybe you should run for office... as a liberal.