ECT 10 Principles of NT eschatology

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Interplanner

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re 8, Mt24A etc don't mix the 1st century Judean events and the worldwide day of judgement of Rom 2. Mt24B turns universally-applicable as anyone can see, and says it would be 'right after' the Judean events except that an allowance for delay was made.

The time of enormous trouble for Israel was the Jewish revolt. It is not an ongoing thing. many of them have done fine all around the world from Austria to Chile. Doing so well that they provoke resentment for how much money they control. That's why that period was identified by Christ.
 
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9, so many Christian's knowledge of what happens in the future or from Psalms for Israel is Ps 83: Israel slaughters them all with God's help. That's not what the apostles spent time on! Not in the least.

I believe the use of Ps 83 that way is perverse. There is nothing like that in the NT. Not at all.
 
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re 10. There is nothing in Rom 11 about such a kingdom, and Ezek is about Christ and the amazing temple of Ephesians 2. The word saved in Rom 11, like the rest of Romans, is about jsutification from sins. the quote from Isaiah tells us this; 'to take away sins' is in the sense of clearing up debt, and was also used about John the Baptizer.

The futurist Israel stuff is hoax; it is theologically unnecessary; it cannot be found in Galatians or Romans etc. It was generated by Jesuits and penetrated the Brethren who quite understandably wanted the discord between Protestants and Catholics to stop. The Plymouth Bretheren thought a complete system of modern israel prophecy fulfillment would be the perfect diversion, no matter what happened to context and sense. It was all based on 'you will not see me until...' in Mt 23, and on 'all Israel...' in Rom 11 but NOTHING else that is solid doctrine; just those sound bytes.


Thanks for your interest in the 10 conclusions; I have yet to see why they should be redone.
 
genuineoriginal

genuineoriginal

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Interplanner said:
re 8, Mt24A etc don't mix the 1st century Judean events and the worldwide day of judgement of Rom 2. Mt24B turns universally-applicable as anyone can see, and says it would be 'right after' the Judean events except that an allowance for delay was made.

The time of enormous trouble for Israel was the Jewish revolt. It is not an ongoing thing. many of them have done fine all around the world from Austria to Chile. Doing so well that they provoke resentment for how much money they control. That's why that period was identified by Christ.
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You obviously have not paid much attention to Old Testament prophecy, which is why you are unable to understand the significance of the exile of the children of Israel from the land of promise.
 
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Interplanner

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re: 25.
Tons. But the NT is the authoritative guide to the OT. It paints a very different picture of fulfillment in many instances.

When there are 2500 uses why should we spend time on a handful of passages that are NOT mentioned by Christ or the apostles like Ps 83 or Ezek 38,39?

2500!!!
 
I

Interplanner

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re 24:
Not at all; they are people like Waltke, Packer, Nolland, now ed of TDNT. Besides primary sources, we would also look at Cullmann, Hengel, Wrede, Rhoads, Gaston, among others. Gaston's was NO STONE ON ANOTHER. One of Hengel's studies was to answer the PLO which made a claim after Munich '72 that 'Jesus tried to overthrow the Romans in Jerusalem; he is our model.' I translated Josephus for one full term before deciding whether to finish my thesis in that topic.

When you work in these materials, you will see how amateur is Walvoord, Ryrie, LaHaye, Lindsay, Rosenberg, etc.
 
I

Interplanner

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GO,
have a look at the thread about the warning in Hebrews about perdition. It may be that what I'm saying there is more clear than here, even though the 10 propositions support both.
 
genuineoriginal

genuineoriginal

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Interplanner said:
So what is you comment on the doctrine I explained, not on my ability to get used to the quote function. I already knew I missed it.
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I don't see any comment on doctrine.
Your comment is on specific people.
Interplanner said:
re 24:
Not at all; they are people like Waltke, Packer, Nolland, now ed of TDNT. Besides primary sources, we would also look at Cullmann, Hengel, Wrede, Rhoads, Gaston, among others. Gaston's was NO STONE ON ANOTHER. One of Hengel's studies was to answer the PLO which made a claim after Munich '72 that 'Jesus tried to overthrow the Romans in Jerusalem; he is our model.' I translated Josephus for one full term before deciding whether to finish my thesis in that topic.

When you work in these materials, you will see how amateur is Walvoord, Ryrie, LaHaye, Lindsay, Rosenberg, etc.
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I have read Walvoord, Ryrie, LaHaye, Lindsay, Rosenberg, etc., and their interpretations are all tainted by replacement theology.

I don't know what the other people you mention say about the exile of the children of Israel.

According to the Old Testament, the children of Israel will be exiled from the land of Israel for failure to submit to God.
During the exile, they will go through much tribulation in order to refine them.
Then they will be returned from the exile.

The battle that destroyed the Temple is not the great tribulation, that is the desolation.
The great tribulation is the exile that followed the destruction of the Temple.
 
I

Interplanner

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genuineoriginal said:
I don't see any comment on doctrine.
Your comment is on specific people.

I have read Walvoord, Ryrie, LaHaye, Lindsay, Rosenberg, etc., and their interpretations are all tainted by replacement theology.

I don't know what the other people you mention say about the exile of the children of Israel.

According to the Old Testament, the children of Israel will be exiled from the land of Israel for failure to submit to God.
During the exile, they will go through much tribulation in order to refine them.
Then they will be returned from the exile.

The battle that destroyed the Temple is not the great tribulation, that is the desolation.
The great tribulation is the exile that followed the destruction of the Temple.
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Pretty confusing, GO.

1, RT is usually the accusation that Israel has been replaced. The authors mentioned wouldn't dare replace Israel. They are the leaders of 2P2P--two programs, two peoples in the Bible.
2, I have tried to reverse this misunderstood RT by banging on Gal 3:17, because that is the original RT problem: Israel replaced the Promise with the Law.
3, the 'intense trouble' Jesus was speaking of was the DofJ. It is not something after the DofJ.
4, there may have been some refinement from the exile of the 5th century, but there is no refinement of them after the current exile. Very few are orthodox, 8% are Christians, and the rest are NYC liberals. Refinement? Not.
 
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Danoh

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Nonsense, IP, that is not what Gal. 3:17 is addressing.

It is addressing an issue THIS SIDE OF Rom. 3:21.

YOU ARE confused...you have Paul contradicting the Lord...

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Acts 21:18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. 21:19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry. 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

This DISTINCTION between the two is WHY Paul not only wrote Galatians, BUT WHY he says the things he says in Galatians.

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
 
genuineoriginal

genuineoriginal

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Interplanner said:
Pretty confusing, GO.

1, RT is usually the accusation that Israel has been replaced. The authors mentioned wouldn't dare replace Israel. They are the leaders of 2P2P--two programs, two peoples in the Bible.
2, I have tried to reverse this misunderstood RT by banging on Gal 3:17, because that is the original RT problem: Israel replaced the Promise with the Law.
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Replacement Theology can mean replacing Israel with the Church as God's Holy people, which is the way most people think of the term.
Other views are that the New Covenant replaced the Old Covenant.
_____
Supersessionism, also called replacement theology or fulfillment theology, is a Christian theological view on the current status of the church in relation to the Jewish people and Judaism.[1] It holds that the Christian Church has succeeded the Israelites as the definitive people of God[2][1][3] or that the New Covenant has replaced or superseded the Mosaic covenant.[4] From a supersessionist's "point of view, just by continuing to exist [outside the Church], the Jews dissent".[5]This view directly contrasts with dual-covenant theology which holds that the Mosaic covenant remains valid for Jews.
Supersessionism formed a core tenet of the Church for the majority of its existence, and remains a common assumption among Christians.
_____​

The two people - two programs view is mistaken, and we can debate it on its own thread if you would like.
I created a new thread with poll Replacement or Two People Two Programs or something else?


Interplanner said:
3, the 'intense trouble' Jesus was speaking of was the DofJ. It is not something after the DofJ.
4, there may have been some refinement from the exile of the 5th century, but there is no refinement of them after the current exile. Very few are orthodox, 8% are Christians, and the rest are NYC liberals. Refinement? Not.
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Most Christians fall into two camps when it comes to the great tribulation.
Some believe that it began and ended with the desolation of Jerusalem between 70 CE and 73 CE.
Others believe it will be a 3-1/2 year period in the future.

Neither is correct.

If you pay attention to the promised curses that are to come on the children of Israel for refusing to obey the commandments, especially the ones surrounding the Babylonian captivity, the destruction of Jerusalem is never the end of it, it is only the beginning.

1 Kings 9:6-9
6 But if ye shall at all turn from following me, ye or your children, and will not keep my commandments and my statutes which I have set before you, but go and serve other gods, and worship them:
7 Then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, will I cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all people:
8 And at this house, which is high, every one that passeth by it shall be astonished, and shall hiss; and they shall say, Why hath the Lord done thus unto this land, and to this house?
9 And they shall answer, Because they forsook the Lord their God, who brought forth their fathers out of the land of Egypt, and have taken hold upon other gods, and have worshipped them, and served them: therefore hath the Lord brought upon them all this evil.​

The great tribulation is a time when the children of Israel are cut off from the land of Israel.

Deuteronomy 4:25-27
25 When thou shalt beget children, and children's children, and ye shall have remained long in the land, and shall corrupt yourselves, and make a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, and shall do evil in the sight of the Lord thy God, to provoke him to anger:
26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.
27 And the Lord shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the Lord shall lead you.​

The exile of the children of Israel is the great tribulation spoken of by Jesus.
 
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I

Interplanner

Well-known member
Danoh said:
Nonsense, IP, that is not what Gal. 3:17 is addressing.

It is addressing an issue THIS SIDE OF Rom. 3:21.

YOU ARE confused...you have Paul contradicting the Lord...

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Acts 21:18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. 21:19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry. 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

This DISTINCTION between the two is WHY Paul not only wrote Galatians, BUT WHY he says the things he says in Galatians.

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
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You simply can't stay in a context/situation. There is no reason at all to reference Rom 3:21 while reading Gal 3:17. Gal 3:17 is expressed because the things going on, because of how Judaism was (which Paul lived in). He says a certain thing got voided and replaced. It was called the Promise, and we know from Gal. that that was Christ.

Paul did not contradict Christ as found in Mt 5 because you don't realize what was meant in Mt 5. It is hyperbole. He didn't mean that the individual had to be more righteous than the Pharisee; he meant that HE would. He was declaring that HE alone had the power not to do those things so badly done by the Pharisees in their zeal for the law. A person does have to exceed the Pharisees to be in the kingdom. Haven't you ever noticed that 'fulfill the law' was based on Mt 3:16's 'to fulfill all righteousness.' Christ is the fulfiller. He was not teaching a way to do it, though we should try--but never by the letter; it must be by a moved heart.

Gal 3 was not addressing something on 'this side of the righteousness of God' (Rom 3:21) because the chapter is full of the fact that the righteousness of God is in Christ and is already of use to the believer for justification. You simply have no idea what you are looking at. If those Jews in incidents in Acts wanted to honor Christ with a torah ceremony here or there, fine. But it could not be used for justification from sin.
 
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Danoh

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Amazing how much you are able to vomit up out of your reasoning of men to not only read into the Scripture, but into "what Danoh was thinking when he wrote such and so about such and such..."

You ought to go on the road with that show; its time to replace Benny Hinn with an ever way off mind reading Partial Preterist, and boy have you vie'd for the job :rotfl:
 
I

Interplanner

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Danoh said:
Amazing how much you are able to vomit up out of your reasoning of men to not only read into the Scripture, but into "what Danoh was thinking when he wrote such and so about such and such..."

You ought to go on the road with that show; its time to replace Benny Hinn with an ever way off mind reading Partial Preterist, and boy have you vie'd for the job :rotfl:
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As expected, your response is not reasons but just insults for the simple sin of differing with you--and your books.
 
I

Interplanner

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The thing officially Promised to Judaism was voided and replaced by Judaism. Do you now understand from that what Paul is trying to correct and why it needs correcting?
 
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