Lifting & Fasting

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
I meant to include your statement here in my reply. You are pointed the wrong way. Get those ideas from your head.
When I'm weight training to build muscularity (which I do NOT do when fasting), I will eat more carbohydrate because it helps build more muscularity. Not too much, but some. It also builds some fat, which I then have to reduce through dieting later. If I am careful to keep eating the right amount of protein (dieting but not fasting), I can preserve the muscularity while simultaneously cutting fat tissue.

This is the idea behind "bulk and cut". You grow muscularity, with the appropriate hypertrophy weight training, easier when you eat some carbohydrate with your protein. Your body just likes having some easy to digest energy (carbohydrate) when it's building muscularity (which it does when you impose on it appropriate hypertrophy weight training). But it also builds some fat tissue.

As I said earlier in the thread, you can get stronger while fasting, meaning peak strength weight training (meaning 1-5RM range), but you're unavoidably going to lose muscularity, so it's a balancing act.
 

Nick M

Plymouth Colonist
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
but you're unavoidably going to lose muscularity, so it's a balancing act.
Demonstrably false. Much like your arguments for the "Holy See". I am done here, your brain washing is not something I will change. Well marbled steaks is definitely bigger, you got that much right.
 

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
Demonstrably false.
Which part? That you're unavoidably going to lose muscularity when fasting? or that it's a balancing act?

Much like your arguments for the "Holy See". I am done here, your brain washing is not something I will change. Well marbled steaks is definitely bigger, you got that much right.
There's zero marbling in the muscularity of elite bodybuilders, you know this.
 

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
I gained about three LBS of muscle and three LBS of fat (c. 12,000 calorie surplus over the course of the bulk, so if it was 24 days long, that's a 500 calorie daily surplus, which is two Snickers bars a day on top of your normal maintenance diet) on a hypertrophy bulk. As long as I can reduce the fat while retaining the muscle, I don't see the problem. You can't grow three LBS of muscle in a month or two unless you're willing to pay the price later on by dieting to reduce the fat, but by continuing to eat more than enough protein, and continuing to hypertrophy weight train, you can reduce a lot of that fat without losing hardly any muscle.

And, it will be faster to lose the fat, than it was to gain the muscle plus fat. So the fat is slow in coming, and quick in leaving, truly transient. You just have to keep it to two Snickers bars a day or thereabouts–don't jump to six Snickers bars or you'll add more fat than muscle, which just means you're going to have to diet for far longer, during which it is difficult to eat (because it's a caloric deficit, less food), and difficult to weight train (because it's a caloric deficit, recovery and restoration between workout sessions isn't as efficient).

That dieting period is very low carbohydrate compared to a maintenance or bulking diet. I can't help that muscle grows naturally more quickly in a caloric surplus. And your body needs protein for lots of things other than maintaining muscularity, so you have to eat more than enough protein (and especially on a diet, from lean, highly concentrated protein sources), and also continue to hypertrophy weight train, to stimulate your muscularity enough to just maintain your current muscularity, while your body fat lowers, which is during times of low insulin, because insulin inhibits adipose catabolism, because insulin is busy with adipose anabolism (tissue building). It's there to build fat tissue, not let it decompose and digest, insulin is the opposite thing that you want if you want fat tissue to anabolize quickly, but you can still lose fat quickly if you eat just Snickers bars, even if it's all you eat, just as long as it's below your maintenance calorie diet. (You'll lose muscle if you only eat Snickers bars, but for instance, say your daily caloric requirement at maintenance dieting is 2250. That's nine Snickers bars. If you eat literally only seven Snickers bars a day, you'll lose two and a half LBS of fat a month at that rate.)

But seven Snickers bars don't have enough protein, so you will lose muscularity. So you'll weigh less than just the two-and-a-half LBS reduced of fat at the end of the month, because you're also going to lose muscle mass, and your bathroom scale doesn't know the difference, so you're going to be happy to have lost 4-5 LBS on the scale, but except, 1-2 LBS was muscle, which you really don't want to celebrate as good weight loss. When you lose weight, you just want to lose fat, not muscle. It's not a good goal to lose muscularity, and it's even irresponsible and irrational to plan to lose muscularity (all other things being equal). It's disordered.

So say you fast: You can't hypertrophy train while fasting, you're not going to be able to keep up with your progressions (because of the inefficient recovery and restoration between workout sessions), but you can keep getting stronger if you have more runway available for neurological adaptations to peak strength weight training, which is going to be something like twice as heavy as hypertrophy weight training. iow this isn't going to help a competitive strong man (who has already run out of neurological adaptation runway), but it can help a civilian who's interested in fasting without losing strength. Then after the fast, you'll be as strong or stronger, and you'll be able to commence hypertrophy training at the same or higher weights, because you're as strong or stronger.
 
So start with about 120 grams of protein a day. 160 grams is better but 120 grams is a good start.

And it has to be discounted, according to how well your body digests it, which means your age (because your body digests protein worse as you get older) and the source. Protein powders are processed in factories but they are digested well, so you don't have to discount them, but for instance meats like chicken fish and beef and other seafood, the discount is like 0.9, because they're really easy to digest, and then there's grains and legumes and nuts, and they're not really well digested, so you have to discount them like 0.5

Dairy like yogurt, milk, cottage cheese are really well digested, you basically don't have to discount dairy protein; and the same with eggs I think.

So combine together the protein discount with the protein concentration (roughly how many of the calories the food has is from protein? something like skinless chicken breast is like 80% of its calories are from protein, which is really good) to plan out how you're going to get in your daily protein.

Once you have that down, then you can figure out what you want to do for weight training. But the protein kind of sets the table for weight training to really help change your body. Eating enough protein a day, taking into account discounting, and spreading it out (don't eat all your protein all in one meal), enables you to take advantage of any inadvertent stimulus to grow muscularity you might already be doing during your days, like carrying heavy stuff or sprinting up stairs or whatever it might be.

There may be some risk to your kidneys or something else with boosting your protein intake in your diet, so obv don't take advice from strangers on the internet without checking with a trusted medical professional.
So I have to say it's seems your advice has been working out quite nicely for me so far. It's only been 2.5 weeks since I started to regulate my protein intake (120g of digested protein, mostly via chicken fillets because its easier to divide them) and I am starting to notice more definition. Even my upper abdominals are just barely starting to define, which is something I've never had before, even when I was younger.
My weight is still exactly the same. So I assume I have built at least some muscle and lost some fat during this time, which is exactly what I want right now.
 
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Nick M

Plymouth Colonist
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Your body has an insulin reaction when you consume protein. It is moderate compared to glucose, which is large. You don't need to consume any carbohydrate when better food is available at all times.
 
Your body has an insulin reaction when you consume protein. It is moderate compared to glucose, which is large. You don't need to consume any carbohydrate when better food is available at all times.
Ok buddy. It's been another 2.5 weeks and I am amazingly satisfied with the results. I haven't even been doing a super hard workout routine or taking creatine or anything like that. I've just been eating all protein and salad. Grains I have been eating only once or twice a week with like a sandwich or a pizza..thanks guys (y)
 

Nick M

Plymouth Colonist
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Ok buddy. It's been another 2.5 weeks and I am amazingly satisfied with the results.
I don't know what you are eating. And you don't have to share. Similarly, many people that don't fully eat right often get better because they improved from the absolute garbage that is the American diet. Even vegans, who go from Taco Bell and fast food to real food. And over time it isn't too good.

When you fast, HGH goes up. Just an FYI. Muscle and organs is the last thing your body consumes. And that is only because you are starving.
 

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
So I have to say it's seems your advice has been working out quite nicely for me so far. It's only been 2.5 weeks since I started to regulate my protein intake (120g of digested protein, mostly via chicken fillets because its easier to divide them) and I am starting to notice more definition. Even my upper abdominals are just barely starting to define, which is something I've never had before, even when I was younger.
My weight is still exactly the same. So I assume I have built at least some muscle and lost some fat during this time, which is exactly what I want right now.
Here are some good vegetables to eat with your chicken:

Spinach
Kale
Collard greens
Onions
Garlic
Broccoli
Cauliflower
Asparagus
Brussels sprouts
Cabbage
Carrots
Beets

These are all fairly low carb (the lowest are the spinach, kale and cauliflower), and most of them have pretty good fiber too, to keep you regular.

Incidentally, just for grins, here's a caloric determination of eating two LBS (raw, uncooked¹) chicken breast with a couple servings of these vegetables:

Two LBS of chicken breast:
960 calories
200 grams protein (180 grams digestible, available protein)

Two servings of vegetables from the above list (average):
85 calories
6 grams protein (3 grams digestible, available protein)

For comparison here's four servings of the highest calorie vegetables instead (mixture of onions and collard greens):
254 calories
14 grams protein (7 grams digestible, available protein)

Add c. 600 calories of a fat for flavor (mayo, sour cream, creamy salad dressing, gravy, etc.).

Total:
960 + 85 + 600 = 1645 calories
180 + 3 = 183 grams digestible, available protein

Worst case (four servings of the highest calories vegetables):
960 + 254 + 600 = 1814 calories
180 + 7 = 187 grams digestible, available protein

For many people, 1814 calories is a caloric deficit, and 1645 calories is a good-sized caloric deficit.


¹ obv cook chicken before eating!
 

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
... fat for flavor (mayo, sour cream, creamy salad dressing, gravy, etc.).

Don't forget about butter too! 600 calories of butter is three-quarters of a stick of butter, per day.

Total:
960 + 85 + 600 = 1645 calories
180 + 3 = 183 grams digestible, available protein

Worst case (four servings of the highest calories vegetables):

Worst case because vegetables are disgusting compared to most foods. You really have to stretch that butter if you eat four servings of these vegetables a day with your chicken.

960 + 254 + 600 = 1814 calories
180 + 7 = 187 grams digestible, available protein

187 grams of protein is a ton of protein, even if you're 300 LBS, that's going to be a fantastic start to your diet.

For many people, 1814 calories is a caloric deficit, and 1645 calories is a good-sized caloric deficit.


¹ obv cook chicken before eating!
 
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Don't forget about butter too! 600 calories of butter is three-quarters of a stick of butter, per day.



Worst case because vegetables are disgusting compared to most foods. You really have to stretch that butter if you eat four servings of these vegetables a day with your chicken.

Yeah you are right about the butter. I'm not much of a veggie guy. Most of my veggie intake has been via vegetable juice. Recently I started to get a bit more creative with my chicken and started to make like a "Chicken and Spinach Alfredo" without the cream and pasta, if that makes any sense.
It drives my wife nuts sometimes but she IS happy with the results so far. 😄
187 grams of protein is a ton of protein, even if you're 300 LBS, that's going to be a fantastic start to your diet.

That's probably close to what I'm taking each day.

I guess egg protein is about 97% digestable at 13 grams per egg. I normally snack on 3-5 boiled eggs per day in between chicken that's an extra 38-63 grams
I'm also doing a 100g protein shake every other day after a workout.
All of this is on top of my 120+g staple of daily chicken proteins.

That's about it. I have no idea how many calories that is. It would be interesting to know. I suspect it's probably not that much, because It doesn't feel like forced feeding. I guess I will figure it out later. It seems I have gained abut 2 kilos in the last 6 weeks. But my beer gut is going away. (I used to drink a lot of beer) Strength gains have not been that much. But my workouts have only been at what I would call a beginner lever. I'll probably start doing heavier workouts now for the next weeks. Maybe more weight and less reps.
 
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