Yes, Virginia: Hitler really was a socialist

TrumpTrainCA

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Yes, Virginia: Hitler really was a socialist

https://www.glennbeck.com/glenn-beck/yes-virginia-hitler-really-was-a-socialist

QUOTE: ".... Yes, Hitler and the Nazis were socialists, for the simple reasons that they were staunchly anti-capitalist and believed that the means of production in their society should be controlled by a centralized state power. That is very clear from their writings, their words and their actions. Done and done....."
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
I've seen a lot of debate over whether they were far left or far right, but does anybody deny that they were socialist?
 

kiwimacahau

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Of course they weren't socialists. As for Beck I wouldn't believe him if he told me the sun rises in the east.
 

Truster

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First and foremostly Hitler was an instrument in the hands of The Almighty. Who often uses the wicked to destroy the wicked or to chasten His strays.
 

nikolai_42

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Of course they weren't socialists. As for Beck I wouldn't believe him if he told me the sun rises in the east.

Then why did they call themselves socialists?

Surely you'd agree that they were collectivists, at least?

It is thus necessary that the individual should finally come to realize that his own ego is of no importance in comparison with the existence of his nation; that the position of the individual ego is conditioned solely by the interests of the nation as a whole ... that above all the unity of a nation's spirit and will are worth far more than the freedom of the spirit and will of an individual....

This state of mind, which subordinates the interests of the ego to the conservation of the community, is really the first premise for every truly human culture.... The basic attitude from which such activity arises, we call-to distinguish it from egoism and selfishness-idealism. By this we understand only the individual's capacity to make sacrifices for the community, for his fellow men.


From The Ominous Parallels by Leonard Peikoff, 1993 - cites Dr. Reisman's translation from one of Hitler's speeches October 7, 1933

Revolutionary collectivists at that...The individual was subordinated to the state - but admittedly, private property and the ownership of the means of production was still (by enlarge) run privately. But the state co-opted the market(s) and essentially directed them all in one direction (i.e. at the expense of competition) - production for war.

Commodity prices, interest rates and wages were not only fixed by the government, but they lost completely their traditional significance as regulators of economic activities. The government decided and ordered what and how much should be invested, produced, distributed, consumed, or stored. A system of "direct controls" was substituted for the mechanism of prices which regulates economic activities "indirectly" in traditional capitalism. No institution remained unaffected by the fundamental change that German Fascism brought about.

{From The Nazi Economic System by Otto Nathan, 1944

Dr. Nathan was a German economist (adviser to the Weimar Republic) who fled Germany in 1933 when the Nazis took over.

With ridiculously excessive hyperinflation and humiliation in WWI (to the point of essentially being stripped of any offensive military capability), what happened was largely a reaction to that. By the time Hitler came along, hyperinflation had been addressed, but unemployment was just as big a problem.

EDIT : Meant to add that there is context for the Nazi power, but it was clearly socialistic and communistic in tendency (modified for the situation in which they found themselves, of course).
 
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JudgeRightly

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Unlike you I have actually studied fascism and Nazism
Never claimed to have.

Nor was that my point.

I was just pointing out that you are, as Michael Shermer was/is, willing to reject truth based on who is sharing it with you.
 

nikolai_42

Well-known member
Then why did they call themselves socialists?

Surely you'd agree that they were collectivists, at least?



Revolutionary collectivists at that...The individual was subordinated to the state - but admittedly, private property and the ownership of the means of production was still (by enlarge) run privately. But the state co-opted the market(s) and essentially directed them all in one direction (i.e. at the expense of competition) - production for war.



With ridiculously excessive hyperinflation and humiliation in WWI (to the point of essentially being stripped of any offensive military capability), what happened was largely a reaction to that. By the time Hitler came along, hyperinflation had been addressed, but unemployment was just as big a problem.

EDIT : Meant to add that there is context for the Nazi power, but it was clearly socialistic and communistic in tendency (modified for the situation in which they found themselves, of course).

Having had a little time to consider this, I should add that there needs to be a distinction between political and economic labels here. Even Nathan says that economically the Nazis were a new breed. They upheld the right to private property but co-opted the means of production in a concerted war effort (well before the war broke out). They eradicated any individual or collective bargaining rights - which meant that the individual was at the mercy of the employer in most ways. This was a serious problem because the economic indicators (as mentioned in my quote of Nathan) were no longer market-driven but set bureaucratically. The Nazis certainly decried the Soviet system of a centrally planned economy, but they ended up wandering in that direction. But the economic system they proposed was a Frankenstein of different philosophies. In his conclusion, Nathan makes this observation :

In the six years that elapsed between the Fascist victory and the outbreak of war, Nazism erected a system of production, distribution, and consumption which defies classification in any of the usual categories. It was not capitalism in the traditional sense; the autonomous market mechanism so characteristic of capitalism during the last two centuries had all but disappeared. It was not State Capitalism; the government disclaimed any desire to own the means of production, and, in fact, took steps to denationalize them. It was not socialism or communism; private property and private profit still existed. It was, rather, a combination of some of the characteristics of capitalism and a highly planned economy. Without in any way destroying its class character, a comprehensive planning mechanism was imposed on an economy in which private property was not expropriated, in which the distribution of national income remained fundamentally unchanged, and in which private entrepreneurs retained some of the prerogatives and responsibilities which were theirs under traditional capitalism. This was done in a society which was dominated by a ruthless political dictatorship.

In considering the changes wrought by the Nazis one thing should be kept clearly in mind. Economists make use of a conceptual apparatus originally designed to describe the theory, and to some extent the practice, of early capitalism. Private property, private profit, competition, and many other concepts used throughout this book, reach far back into the past and carry into the present suggestions of former meanings which are misleading. To be at all useful as descriptive categories, these terms are in need of constant redefinition as the economic system they are meant to picture undergoes significant change. The changes introduced by the Nazis are a case in point, and unless one is careful in using these old concepts to describe the phenomena of the Nazi economy, there is bound to be misunderstanding, and much superficial generalizing that is more dramatic than it is accurate.

...

Property, for example, continued to be a source of large and unearned income. But ownership of property no longer carried with it the discretionary right to interfere in the productive process. Private profit continued to exist as one of the important claims on national income. But the profit motive and competition ceased to perform the functions assigned to them by traditional capitalism. Instead of their former roles in the production and investment process they now functioned primarily as energizers, to stimulate businessmen to extend themselves to improve the productivity of their enterprises. All these developments meant that the role of the entrepreneur in the economy had changed. The daring entrepreneur of the nineteenth century, who risked his own capital in pursuit of high profits, was already on his way out in the highly “organized” capitalism of pre-Nazi Germany. German Fascism eliminated him completely, and in his stead called into being an entrepreneur who could exercise his initiative and accumulate wealth, but who was compelled to operate strictly within the limitations of a government determined program of economic activity. “Private enterprises,” declared a semiofficial publication in 1937, “have become public trusts. The State is, for all practical purposes, a partner in every German enterprise. . . . When the enterprise is a public trust, its survival, and the profitability of the invested capital become maters of public interest.’” If the Nazi entrepreneur could not invest freely, he was compensated by the fact that full employment and the willingness of the government to subsidize submarginal producers, made the profitability of his enterprise much more secure than it had ever been before.


{From the conclusion of The Nazi Economic System by Otto Nathan, 1944}

Politically, the Nazis were dictatorial. Economically, they were hard to pin down.
 
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