Will Hawking be Angry?

bob b

Science Lover
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If a new theory, reported in the Guardian, turns out to be true, Black Holes may not exist.

American astronomers claim that black holes may not exist Ian Sample, science correspondent
Saturday July 29, 2006
The Guardian

They swallow everything that comes their way and exercise the world's finest minds, but the portrayal of black holes as awe-inspiring celestial menaces may be woefully inaccurate, a team of scientists claim. Indeed, they might not exist at all.
According to the researchers, the traditional astronomers' view of a universe liberally sprinkled with invisible, all-consuming black holes should be replaced with an alternative that sees strange, magnetic balls of plasma floating in their place.

If the finding is verified - an event some scientists do not see on the horizon - it would dramatically overturn a theory that emerged from an English geologist's calculations in 1784, was verified by Einstein and confined by four laws drawn up by Professor Stephen Hawking.

The scientists, lead by Rudy Schild at the Harvard-Smithsonian Centre for Astrophysics, spotted what they claim to be the death knell for black hole theory while observing a quasar, lurking nine billion light years from Earth.

Quasars are believed to have black holes at their centres, but to test this assumption, the scientists set up 14 telescopes to keep an unprecedented watch on the object. By analysing the gentle flickering of the quasar, the team were able to probe the structure of its interior.

They discovered a gaping hole in a disc of material surrounding the centre of the quasar, as wide as 4,000 times the distance from the Earth to the sun. The hole, they believe, could only be caused by a vast ejection of material propelled by a strong magnetic field.

Because black holes do not have magnetic fields, Dr Schild's team suggest in The Astronomical Journal, the quasar must be powered by a dense ball of plasma called a MECO (magnetospheric eternally collapsing object). But according to the astronomers' theories the MECOs' existence precludes the possibility of black holes.

"I believe this is the first evidence that the whole black hole paradigm is incorrect," said Darryl Leiter, a scientist on the team told the New Scientist.

According to Gerry Gilmore at Cambridge University's Institute for Astronomy, the theory has yet to convince most scientists. He pointed to last year's groundbreaking experiments that gave the first direct observation of a black hole at the centre of our galaxy, the Milky Way. "I'd have to say it's a minority view. It's almost certainly wrong," said Prof Gilmore. "Before we had observations of a black hole, there was a legitimate debate over whether black holes existed or not, but now it's hard to think how it could be anything else."
 

logos_x

New member
Ok. Well, this has me wondering how MECOs and Black Holes can't both exsist. Why does the exsistence of MECOs preclude the existence of Black Holes?

Not that it really matters all that much right now anyway. It's not like we have one of either of those in our back yard.
 

bob b

Science Lover
LIFETIME MEMBER
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logos_x said:
Ok. Well, this has me wondering how MECOs and Black Holes can't both exsist. Why does the exsistence of MECOs preclude the existence of Black Holes?

Not that it really matters all that much right now anyway. It's not like we have one of either of those in our back yard.

I think it does matter.

The media and the educational establishment have over the years created in the public mind the impression that certain scientists (e.g. Darwin, Einstein, Hawking) were or are some sort of gods who are so far above the common man that everything they say must be believed without question.

If within a person's lifetime a widely held theory is overturned then it tends to counter the myth of human infallibility in science.

In my own case I am old enough to remember the struggle among scientists to replace the idea that the universe had always existed in favor of the currently popular Big Bang.

This helped me to resist the "authority" argument which some have used on this forum to support their belief in Origin speculations like abiogenesis and parallel universes.
 

chair

Well-known member
bob b said:
I think it does matter.

The media and the educational establishment have over the years created in the public mind the impression that certain scientists (e.g. Darwin, Einstein, Hawking) were or are some sort of gods who are so far above the common man that everything they say must be believed without question.

If within a person's lifetime a widely held theory is overturned then it tends to counter the myth of human infallibility in science.

In my own case I am old enough to remember the struggle among scientists to replace the idea that the universe had always existed in favor of the currently popular Big Bang.

This helped me to resist the "authority" argument which some have used on this forum to support their belief in Origin speculations like abiogenesis and parallel universes.

What the media does, and what scientists do are two seperate things. Science at its best is self correcting.
There is one field, though, not scientific, in which authority plays a decisive role. It's called religion.
 

Servo

Formerly Shimei!
LIFETIME MEMBER
bob b said:
I think it does matter.

The media and the educational establishment have over the years created in the public mind the impression that certain scientists (e.g. Darwin, Einstein, Hawking) were or are some sort of gods who are so far above the common man that everything they say must be believed without question.

If within a person's lifetime a widely held theory is overturned then it tends to counter the myth of human infallibility in science.

In my own case I am old enough to remember the struggle among scientists to replace the idea that the universe had always existed in favor of the currently popular Big Bang.

This helped me to resist the "authority" argument which some have used on this forum to support their belief in Origin speculations like abiogenesis and parallel universes.

:thumb:
 

Dr. Hfuhruhurr

BANNED
Banned
bobby said:
The media and the educational establishment have over the years created in the public mind the impression that certain scientists (e.g. Darwin, Einstein, Hawking) were or are some sort of gods who are so far above the common man that everything they say must be believed without question.

Gee, and what have the Christians done with Jesus?
 

Dr. Hfuhruhurr

BANNED
Banned
bobby said:
You have finally revealed your true colors: antiChristian.
Oooo! somebody's a bit thin skinned.

But I'm not really anti-Christian, just anti- some of what Christians do under the guise of their religion. As the saying sort of goes, some of my best friends are Christians . . . . . . . . . . . . . and, of course, some of my non-friends are Christian idiots.






edited to add. I forgot to mention before: interesting OP. Thanks for sharing.
 

Jukia

New member
No, I suspect Hawking will not be angry. Surprised perhaps, but why should he be angry? Science is able to evaluate different bits of information and modify existing theory based on that evidence. Not a big deal from a philosophical standpoint.
Although I'm not sure how the Goddidit creationists will deal with the "eternally collapsing" part of this new MECO theory.
 

bob b

Science Lover
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Dr. Hfuhruhurr said:
Oooo! somebody's a bit thin skinned.

Not at all. But many a thing said without thinking reveals a lot about a person. In your case you revealed that you do not believe that Jesus was God, and that means that you are opposed to the basic foundational belief of Christians.

But I'm not really anti-Christian,

Of course you are.

just anti- some of what Christians do under the guise of their religion. As the saying sort of goes, some of my best friends are Christians . . . . . . . . . . . . . and, of course, some of my non-friends are Christian idiots.

Some of my friends are unbelievers, but even though I am friendly to them the fact remains that I am against atheism, i.e. I am anti-atheist.

You are antiChristian as revealed by your statement on this forum to the effect that human writers invented the idea that Jesus was God in the flesh.

You need to recognize when a spade is a spade.
 

SUTG

New member
bobby said:
If a new theory, reported in the Guardian, turns out to be true, Black Holes may not exist.

American astronomers claim that black holes may not exist Ian Sample, science correspondent
Saturday July 29, 2006
The Guardian

They swallow everything that comes their way and exercise the world's finest minds, but the portrayal of black holes as awe-inspiring celestial menaces may be woefully inaccurate, a team of scientists claim. Indeed, they might not exist at all.
According to the researchers, the traditional astronomers' view of a universe liberally sprinkled with invisible, all-consuming black holes should be replaced with an alternative that sees strange, magnetic balls of plasma floating in their place.

If the finding is verified - an event some scientists do not see on the horizon - it would dramatically overturn a theory that emerged from an English geologist's calculations in 1784, was verified by Einstein and confined by four laws drawn up by Professor Stephen Hawking.

The scientists, lead by Rudy Schild at the Harvard-Smithsonian Centre for Astrophysics, spotted what they claim to be the death knell for black hole theory while observing a quasar, lurking nine billion light years from Earth.

Quasars are believed to have black holes at their centres, but to test this assumption, the scientists set up 14 telescopes to keep an unprecedented watch on the object. By analysing the gentle flickering of the quasar, the team were able to probe the structure of its interior.

They discovered a gaping hole in a disc of material surrounding the centre of the quasar, as wide as 4,000 times the distance from the Earth to the sun. The hole, they believe, could only be caused by a vast ejection of material propelled by a strong magnetic field.

Because black holes do not have magnetic fields, Dr Schild's team suggest in The Astronomical Journal, the quasar must be powered by a dense ball of plasma called a MECO (magnetospheric eternally collapsing object). But according to the astronomers' theories the MECOs' existence precludes the possibility of black holes.

"I believe this is the first evidence that the whole black hole paradigm is incorrect," said Darryl Leiter, a scientist on the team told the New Scientist.

According to Gerry Gilmore at Cambridge University's Institute for Astronomy, the theory has yet to convince most scientists. He pointed to last year's groundbreaking experiments that gave the first direct observation of a black hole at the centre of our galaxy, the Milky Way. "I'd have to say it's a minority view. It's almost certainly wrong," said Prof Gilmore. "Before we had observations of a black hole, there was a legitimate debate over whether black holes existed or not, but now it's hard to think how it could be anything else."

emphasis added by SUTG
 

Johnny

New member
bob b said:
This helped me to resist the "authority" argument which some have used on this forum to support their belief in Origin speculations like abiogenesis and parallel universes.
But in all fairness you have merely changed one authority for another, correct?
 

Dr. Hfuhruhurr

BANNED
Banned
bobby said:
Not at all. But many a thing said without thinking reveals a lot about a person. In your case you revealed that you do not believe that Jesus was God, and that means that you are opposed to the basic foundational belief of Christians.
Not even opposed. "Opposed" and "anti" denote against. I'm not against Christianity at all. Just like I'm not against Hinduism, or Taoism. And I'm not against Christians as long as they keep their noses out of my business and the rights of others. As for Christianity, I simply find it too full of holes to believe. One of them is that it requires that I believe there is a god. I disagree with a lot of what Christianity claims, but this does not mean I'm opposed to it.

Of course you are [anti-Christian].
Well, *chuckle* okey dokey. You have it your way and go to bed happy.
 

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Dr. Hfuhruhurr said:
I'm not against Christians as long as they keep their noses out of my business and the rights of others.
we dont.

oppose us now?
 
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