Why would God need a hell?
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dodge
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We choose our own harvest (Mt 13:30, Ga 6:7).
"The gates of hell are locked from the inside." ~ C.S. Lewis
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Why would God need a hell?
Many theologians believed and taught that hell was created for Satan and the angels that rebelled against God. Those that rejected God and His Son will spend eternity with their spiritual father Satan.
2Pe 2:4
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
We choose our own harvest (Mt 13:30, Ga 6:7).
"The gates of hell are locked from the inside." ~ C.S. Lewis
Related:
Why would God need a hell?
Why not?
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God is just (Deut. 32:4).
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"The self-centered man...because he spent all of his life for himself, he ended up in eternity by himself." Luke 16:19–31 ~ Michael Youssef
See:
Life After Death by Michael Youssef
See:
Life After Death by Michael Youssef
WonderfulLordJesus
New member
Why God chose certain ways I believe is beyond man's comprehension, in this world. But we do know God is Holy, with the capital 'H' for emphasis of degree, beyond man, that is, perfection. Integral to this is absolute justice. God would be corrupt if He winked at sin, if there were no cost to sin. He wouldn't be Holy, if He allowed sin without repercussions, would rather be a facilitator of sin, in that event. That steadfast, immutable Holiness is an attribute of God you can be as thankful for as His agape love and mercy, is what makes God, Jesus Christ, worthy, dependable and trustworthy to not be capricious and hypocritical. Lucky for us all that God doesn't have gratuitous, sinful mean streaks, is not so double minded, does not have any attributes of Satan's evil, in which case the entire universe would be in a real pickle. But holiness demands intolerance of sin and consequences, or Creator God has wrought sin. Maybe that would be something like somebody who never commits any crime, only cooks and cleans for people, welcomes evil strangers into his home with a smile, only ever does things right, himself, but his guests are all bank robbers, murderers or drug dealers by day, which he is taking such good care of. Even common law and common sense recognizes that person, running the house, were he as moronic as people come and like Mother Teresa in his own mind, that person would just be a fool, a most useful part of the criminal enterprise and fully share the guilt. And would people have God reward unrepentant sinners, populate the kingdom of heaven with devils, welcome a bunch of little devil clones among the saints?
Can't say I quite understand eternal punishment, but let's add another observation about punishment. The soul sleep and annihilation crowd, which is the cults, as this is not God's word on the matter of hell and the lake of fire, but, anyway, you have there a situation where, say, the law abiding atheist and Adolf Hitler share the same fate, just get torched to cosmic spirit ashes, that itself an interesting theory with some real problems. It so begs the question, then, why not genocide, why not evil maximus, if it’s just lights out for all who don't repent? It's a fact many, many Christians got burned alive, were martyred this way, and also fact a lot of egregious sinners have died in bed. If the egregious sinner finally gets burned up at the judgment, we have a case where saint and sinner have received the same medicine, as burned to death alive is burned to death alive. What is wrong with that picture? What you're saying is that many dear saints got the fruit that is like damnation. This does not compute, even if you ignore all the scripture that explicitly states there is conscious torment of sinners and devils in the after life. And, what do you know, the threat that God's judgment is just lights out plays well into the devil's playbook, that sinners really don't have anything to fear much beyond a bad death in this world.
Easy to delude yourself there are no consequences, just what the sinner would like to hear. Whole cults are built on such thinking that facilitates unrepentance, despite the Bible clear that's far from the case. And they will argue all day long all sorts of schemes that try to negate scripture, don't believe your lying eyes stuff what scripture clearly states of hell and the lake of fire. That is, these people just do not believe the word of God, have never repented. It won't simply be lights out for them, either.
Whatever anybody thinks of hell, I'd suggest it's a fact, a reality, first and foremost, to avoid, not a matter for deluded debates. People had better repent, while they can, submit to the Lord Jesus in spirit and truth, or be prepared to beg for a drop of water on your tongue, where your delusions end in torment and there are no more the righteous to throw lies at and debate. This is serious business for everybody on the planet, to anybody with a scintilla of sense. I wouldn’t be as much worried about why hell as that it is, period.
Matthew 25
41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels...
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Mark 9
42 But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea.
43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched ---
44 where 'Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.'
45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched ---
46 where 'Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.'
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire ---
48 where 'Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.'
Revelation 14
9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
Revalation 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 22
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Luke 16
19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day.
20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate,
21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'
25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.
26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'
27 "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house,
28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'
29 Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'
30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "
Also, I've always seen this a Jesus Christ no-brainer verse, but a question we all need to ask ourselves. His words so, so true, striking at the heart of this matter of the foolishness of carnal man, no matter the fruits of sin for a season in this life, questions of eternal consequence that define rhetorical, no positive answers:
Matthew 16:26 For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?
When you think about it, the most admired and envied people on the planet are some of the most miserable, vain and pitiful fools, as they say no U-Hauls allowed in Hades, and forever is a mighty long time.
Can't say I quite understand eternal punishment, but let's add another observation about punishment. The soul sleep and annihilation crowd, which is the cults, as this is not God's word on the matter of hell and the lake of fire, but, anyway, you have there a situation where, say, the law abiding atheist and Adolf Hitler share the same fate, just get torched to cosmic spirit ashes, that itself an interesting theory with some real problems. It so begs the question, then, why not genocide, why not evil maximus, if it’s just lights out for all who don't repent? It's a fact many, many Christians got burned alive, were martyred this way, and also fact a lot of egregious sinners have died in bed. If the egregious sinner finally gets burned up at the judgment, we have a case where saint and sinner have received the same medicine, as burned to death alive is burned to death alive. What is wrong with that picture? What you're saying is that many dear saints got the fruit that is like damnation. This does not compute, even if you ignore all the scripture that explicitly states there is conscious torment of sinners and devils in the after life. And, what do you know, the threat that God's judgment is just lights out plays well into the devil's playbook, that sinners really don't have anything to fear much beyond a bad death in this world.
Easy to delude yourself there are no consequences, just what the sinner would like to hear. Whole cults are built on such thinking that facilitates unrepentance, despite the Bible clear that's far from the case. And they will argue all day long all sorts of schemes that try to negate scripture, don't believe your lying eyes stuff what scripture clearly states of hell and the lake of fire. That is, these people just do not believe the word of God, have never repented. It won't simply be lights out for them, either.
Whatever anybody thinks of hell, I'd suggest it's a fact, a reality, first and foremost, to avoid, not a matter for deluded debates. People had better repent, while they can, submit to the Lord Jesus in spirit and truth, or be prepared to beg for a drop of water on your tongue, where your delusions end in torment and there are no more the righteous to throw lies at and debate. This is serious business for everybody on the planet, to anybody with a scintilla of sense. I wouldn’t be as much worried about why hell as that it is, period.
Matthew 25
41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels...
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Mark 9
42 But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea.
43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched ---
44 where 'Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.'
45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched ---
46 where 'Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.'
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire ---
48 where 'Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.'
Revelation 14
9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
Revalation 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 22
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Luke 16
19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day.
20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate,
21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'
25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.
26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'
27 "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house,
28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'
29 Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'
30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "
Also, I've always seen this a Jesus Christ no-brainer verse, but a question we all need to ask ourselves. His words so, so true, striking at the heart of this matter of the foolishness of carnal man, no matter the fruits of sin for a season in this life, questions of eternal consequence that define rhetorical, no positive answers:
Matthew 16:26 For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?
When you think about it, the most admired and envied people on the planet are some of the most miserable, vain and pitiful fools, as they say no U-Hauls allowed in Hades, and forever is a mighty long time.
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I don't what to offend anyone here, but I don't believe in hell , or heaven . I don't know what comes after death , but I'm not a dogmatic atheists who is convinced that death is oblivion and nothingness .
Possibly other dimensions exist , but as far as I'm concerned, hell is just a fairy tale created to frighten people into blindly following the church , or Islam . And all the reasons for sending people to hell are totally arbitrary and grossly unfair .
I could understand Hitler, Stalin,Mao Zedong, Pol Pot and other horribly evil individuals being sent to hell if it existed . or people who committed cold blooded murder , were cruel to others throughout their lives, who lied constantly , made false accusations against others out of malice, were horribly greedy and made huge fortunes while exploiting the poor , and other things being sent to hell , but sending good people to hell merely because they followed the wrong religion or no religion at all is no better than humans being cruel and merciless .
Or people who committed minor offenses . In Christianity, the notion that God would send people who had done horrible things in life to hell if they accepted Jesus as their savior makes no sense to me .
While sending people who had been kind, generous and benevolent to hell merely because they didn't do this is something I just can't accept as truth . Again, no offense meant to Christians here .
Possibly other dimensions exist , but as far as I'm concerned, hell is just a fairy tale created to frighten people into blindly following the church , or Islam . And all the reasons for sending people to hell are totally arbitrary and grossly unfair .
I could understand Hitler, Stalin,Mao Zedong, Pol Pot and other horribly evil individuals being sent to hell if it existed . or people who committed cold blooded murder , were cruel to others throughout their lives, who lied constantly , made false accusations against others out of malice, were horribly greedy and made huge fortunes while exploiting the poor , and other things being sent to hell , but sending good people to hell merely because they followed the wrong religion or no religion at all is no better than humans being cruel and merciless .
Or people who committed minor offenses . In Christianity, the notion that God would send people who had done horrible things in life to hell if they accepted Jesus as their savior makes no sense to me .
While sending people who had been kind, generous and benevolent to hell merely because they didn't do this is something I just can't accept as truth . Again, no offense meant to Christians here .
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
like abortionists?
WonderfulLordJesus
New member
You lost me with the idea people who’ve done bad things go to hell, who’ve accepted Christ. Paul was a repentant persecutor/murderer of Christians. Unless you meant some sort of fake Christian, some evil doer who claims Christ only by lip service: there are many, many fake Christians, cults, etc. But in Christ there is forgiveness of sin for the repentant, don’t understand what you’re saying. In any case, I’m a Christian, but don’t find your comments offensive. They’re understandable, even make sense, on a human level, but it’s of our fallen human level. We don’t naturally grasp the concept of the holiness of God, absolute holiness, the offensiveness of all sin, the offensiveness of the rejection of things righteous for things evil to Holy God. This is as if not to mention the betrayal of our Creator and Sustainer inherent in that rebellion and faithlessness, disobedience. He gives us life and the things to sustain life, and we’re worse than dogs, biting the hand that feeds us. Even on a human level, you’d not take much of that from other people, and you’d be most offended. I think of God such offense amplified a million times. God lowered the boom on Adam and Eve, though nobody was robbed, raped, killed or even bled. He gave strong warning, too, but they went ahead and disobeyed.
In the case of Jesus Christ, He offers you a chance at repentance and forgiveness, redemption for coming to Him in faith, turning from evil and submitted to His righteousness. He warns you of hell. If you choose disobedience, which is choosing Satan’s ways, reject even the One who horribly suffered and died for your sins, to save you, what help is there for you? If you make a choice to reject God, despite His longsuffering and outstretched hand, His gift of salvation, is that not all she wrote? And who are we to judge God in anything whatsoever? Our thoughts are lower than His thoughts, and our ways are lower than His ways, and we are far from absolute holiness. He’s the eternal Creator of the entire universe, and we are whiney little babies of a few years, that use only a fraction of a brain. That being the case, it seems perfectly sensible, for me, to look at God, and it’s, “Alright. Whatever You say!” If you want to box with Him, you’re going to have to grow those arms. A lot. You know, after all, He do float like a butterfly, but sting like a hydrogen bomb.
Would add you disbelieve, because you reject God. The Bible proves itself in fulfilled prophecy of the Old Testament, these days some of the New Testament. The Bible proves itself in the complete credibility of the New Testament account, in the smallest details worthy to be presented as legal evidence in any court of law, witnesses, consciousness of the characters involved and congruity of events, in all ways. You have all the information. To say man invented the faith, the God that proves He knows the future right there in scripture, is impossible. Look at the links below. You can refuse God, but you can know He’s there. But, if you were to be honest about it, you reject God, at best believe what you want to believe and are not a scholar of the facts involved, because you won't truly seek God, refuse God. So you’re being disingenuous to claim it’s all a fantasy, and you wouldn’t be here, saying what you’re saying, if it were really a matter of the likes of some idiotic Santa Claus cult giving you a restless heart and mind. You don’t strike me a stupid man that naive and dismissive, in reality, rather somebody trying to grasp the mysteries we all confront, as thinking people, if we have any sense, confront sooner or later, as mentioned about the later: not so good!
Anyway, you seem like a bright guy who has a lot of potential, a thinking person who articulates his thoughts well, not some fool. Again, look at the links, and at least don’t go around saying there’s no proof of God, in the future, unless you’re a liar. Otherwise, best wishes.
1 Corinthians 15
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you --- unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,
5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve.
6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep.
7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles.
8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.
9 For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
11 Therefore, whether it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.
http://www.dannychesnut.com/Bible/P...e Old Testament fulfilled in Jesus Christ.htm
http://christinprophecy.org/articles/applying-the-science-of-probability-to-the-scriptures/
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Arthur Brain
Well-known member
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
Why is this in the politics section anyway?
Ah, the voice of compassion, understanding and empathy all in none...
Fools and blind! You are of your father the devil!
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
If the alternative is becoming some nasty, bloodthirsty, embittered little crank who seems to thrive and take glee in the prospect of the abject suffering of others then whatever. If you'd been born someplace other than your beloved USA your normality in life might well have been spent worshiping in a mosque.
You truly are retarded.
Just what?
No doubt if Nick was a product of the Middle East he'd be currently chanting "alllah 'akbar", throwing homosexuals off rooftops and claiming the West as devils.
Tis the mindset....:idunno:
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
in artie's case it's self induced: Wernicke–Korsakoff syndrome
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol-related_dementia
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
Considering you can't think for yourself outside of your zealous, dogmatic belief system in Christianity then it stands to reason. You don't have critical thinking ability so if you were brought up in a Muslim society then you'd most likely be parroting the same gibberish you do here, just under a different religion. In short you're just not too bright, speaking of which...
You're just pitiable these days SOD. It's just the same ole repetitive, witless rumours and lies occasionally punctuated with the odd bit of inadvertently hysterical piousness. Methinks thou doth project too much...
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
The extremist one at any rate although zealots don't seem to have the word irony in their dictionary...