Why the Religious Will Perish with the Unbelievers

[Robert Pate]

The religious and the unbelievers have something incommmon. Neither one have saving faith. The unbeliever does not believe that Jesus is his savior for a variety of different reasons. The religious do not believe that salvation is by faith alone. They believe that it is by faith plus something that they do or have become, which cancels out faith alone and eliminates faith all together.

WHAT IS SAVING FAITH?
Saving faith is a faith that is 100% dependent upon the work and the person of Jesus Christ for their salvation. Those that have saving faith have no problem confessing that they are unworthy sinners that are saved and justified by Christ alone, Romans 3:26.

Calvinism is probably the most faithless religion that there is. To profess that God predestinates people to hell before they are born is about as blasphemous as one can get. It is not possible to believe such terrible things about God and be saved. To make things worse they openly profess that Jesus did not atone for the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2. They do not have saving faith, if they have faith at all.

Catholicism is a works based religion. They cannot believe that Jesus saves to the uttermost, Hebrews 7:25. They believe that they are participants in their salvation. If that were true Paul would not have written,

"But to him that does NO WORKS, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" Romans 4:5.

In the New Testament faith, not works, counts for righteousness. The religious hate this scripture because it leaves them out. You should be left out because you are a sinner. Sinners have no part in their salvation. God is not the minister of sin. If you want to be saved, you will have to come to Christ as repentant sinner and ask him to save you, Romans 10:13. Most religious people are to proud to do this, so they look for other ways to be saved.

 

[Ktoyou]

I attend church and am saved! :rapture:

 

[jamie]

The religious and the unbelievers have something incommmon. Neither one have saving faith. The unbeliever does not believe that Jesus is his savior for a variety of different reasons. The religious do not believe that salvation is by faith alone. They believe that it is by faith plus something that they do or have become, which cancels out faith alone and eliminates faith all together.

Why is that a problem?

The Last Day is the day of salvation for most people.

 

[Samie]

To be saved is to be in Christ, to be part of His body. Unless FIRST plugged in to the only source of power - Christ (1 Cor 1:24), one does not have power to do anything and hence cannot do the act of believing. Christ emphatically said one can do NOTHING when NOT in Him (John 15:5).

First things first.

Human acts, such as "believing" do not result in making one part of the body of Christ - the ONLY source of power (1 Cor 1:24), in much the same way that an electric bulb does not shine for it to be plugged in to the source of power. The electric bulb shines because it is ALREADY plugged in to the source of power in much the same way that people can do the act of "believing" because they are ALREADY plugged in to Christ - the only source of power.

And people were PLUGGED IN to Christ when, as revealed on the cross, God through Christ fashioned us all - humanity - into the body of His Son, thereby creating a new man: Christ the Head, humanity the Body, with the intent of reconciling us to Himself (see Eph 2:14-16). When the Head died, the Body likewise died (2 Cor 5:14, 15; Heb 2:9), and by that death we all were reconciled to God (Rom 5:10), and all our sins forgiven (Eph 1:7; Col 1:14; 2:13, 14). This is where we were PLUGGED IN to Christ. We are born ALREADY plugged in to Him.

 

[Stuu]

The unbeliever does not believe that Jesus is his savior for a variety of different reasons.

And they are excellent reasons.

What a strange, archaic word is unbeliever. Google says its usage peaked in the 1820s.

Stuart

 

[Robert Pate]

To be saved is to be in Christ, to be part of His body. Unless FIRST plugged in to the only source of power - Christ (1 Cor 1:24), one does not have power to do anything and hence cannot do the act of believing. Christ emphatically said one can do NOTHING when NOT in Him (John 15:5).

First things first.

Human acts, such as "believing" do not result in making one part of the body of Christ - the ONLY source of power (1 Cor 1:24), in much the same way that an electric bulb does not shine for it to be plugged in to the source of power. The electric bulb shines because it is ALREADY plugged in to the source of power in much the same way that people can do the act of "believing" because they are ALREADY plugged in to Christ - the only source of power.

And people were PLUGGED IN to Christ when, as revealed on the cross, God through Christ fashioned us all - humanity - into the body of His Son, thereby creating a new man: Christ the Head, humanity the Body, with the intent of reconciling us to Himself (see Eph 2:14-16). When the Head died, the Body likewise died (2 Cor 5:14, 15; Heb 2:9), and by that death we all were reconciled to God (Rom 5:10), and all our sins forgiven (Eph 1:7; Col 1:14; 2:13, 14). This is where we were PLUGGED IN to Christ. We are born ALREADY plugged in to Him.

Jesus said, "Whosoever that believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" John 3:16.

Are you saying that Jesus that Jesus is a liar?

Those that were saved in the new Testament were saved by hearing and believing the Gospel, Romans 10:17.

 

[Robert Pate]

To be saved is to be in Christ, to be part of His body. Unless FIRST plugged in to the only source of power - Christ (1 Cor 1:24), one does not have power to do anything and hence cannot do the act of believing. Christ emphatically said one can do NOTHING when NOT in Him (John 15:5).

First things first.

Human acts, such as "believing" do not result in making one part of the body of Christ - the ONLY source of power (1 Cor 1:24), in much the same way that an electric bulb does not shine for it to be plugged in to the source of power. The electric bulb shines because it is ALREADY plugged in to the source of power in much the same way that people can do the act of "believing" because they are ALREADY plugged in to Christ - the only source of power.

And people were PLUGGED IN to Christ when, as revealed on the cross, God through Christ fashioned us all - humanity - into the body of His Son, thereby creating a new man: Christ the Head, humanity the Body, with the intent of reconciling us to Himself (see Eph 2:14-16). When the Head died, the Body likewise died (2 Cor 5:14, 15; Heb 2:9), and by that death we all were reconciled to God (Rom 5:10), and all our sins forgiven (Eph 1:7; Col 1:14; 2:13, 14). This is where we were PLUGGED IN to Christ. We are born ALREADY plugged in to Him.

Jesus said, "Whosoever that believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" John 3:16.

Are you saying that Jesus is a liar?

Those that were saved in the New Testament were saved by hearing and believing the Gospel, Romans 10:17.

 

[Robert Pate]

I attend church and am saved! :rapture:

Why do you need a church?

The early church met in each others homes. There was no paid staff. Beware of religion, especially organized religion. Most of the teaching is anti-Gospel and anti-Christ. organized religion and the "Historical Gospel" are not compatible.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Why do you need a church?

The early church met in each others homes. There was no paid staff. Beware of religion, especially organized religion. Most of the teaching is anti-Gospel and anti-Christ. organized religion and the "Historical Gospel" are not compatible.

Rather, beware of the Lone Ranger type, who thinks all the words spent being superintended by God the Holy Spirit concerning the qualifications, duties, and ordination of servants of the Lord for the militant church were irrelevant and not needed. Yes, in its infancy the homes of the faithful served as a meeting place. So, what, then? When 30-50 like-minded folks start to show up, must the home be the only alternative? Really? Church planting is just that. Seeds, that when watered by the Lord result in increase and the need for a facility to support the growth blessed by God.

A building is a pretty convenient thing to have. In many cases, it's not just a convenience, but a necessity. A place you never have to ask permission to access. A place you can have worship, Christian education, Bible study, prayer meeting, weddings, a study, a library, funerals, fellowship meetings, communal meals, storage. The church is made up of individuals and families of various means and incomes. On whom do these demands fall, when there's no building? Someone gives it up. Someone bears an associated cost.

The building is a means to the end of all the above, for the life of the members. It can even supply the lives of future members, whose resources can be put to other ends, for the fact they already have a building and it only requires maintenance. A building may attract new members (and potential donors) because they think this outfit has a future. "These people are thinking long-term."

If there is no building, we still have to get facilities to meet, to prepare food, to store the hymnals, etc. Banks are a modern invention. Apostle Paul had to devote resources and planning to collecting a fund, 1 Cor. 16:3; 2 Cor. 8:11,20. At some point, you have either to pay for keeping such a gift in a safe, or the church must have its own. Robert, you need to appreciate that the church is an organization that is found in the world, and our circumstances and our decisions about what to do and how to get along while we're here, while maintaining our institutional identity, lead us into choices about how best to do these things.

There are Christian groups that adopt a philosophical approach that is "minimalist," or some such. They are fine, I don't oppose them or resent them in principle. I don't think they ought to judge another group up the road, who have a nice-looking building and a well-kept lawn, as if they were, per you, Robert, "obviously less spiritually minded". The fact that it does happen just proves that it is not only those putting wealth on display who are pretentious. :AMR:

The Jews had synagogues (meeting in buildings) for centuries, before Christians basically formed a new synagogue. The same "biblical" and practical justifications for the former are still with us. We aren't in heaven yet.

The wrong priorities, misallocation of funds, investing holiness in some pile of brick, making people feel guilty for not giving more--these are just some of the abuses of financial and spiritual responsibility by which churches can err. But, I don't think one can criticize accurately the problems in any particular instance, until he's got some experience in handling similar responsibility.

AMR

 

[jamie]

Religion or not everyone must die once.

 

[Robert Pate]

Rather, beware of the Lone Ranger type, who thinks all the words spent being superintended by God the Holy Spirit concerning the qualifications, duties, and ordination of servants of the Lord for the militant church were irrelevant and not needed. Yes, in its infancy the homes of the faithful served as a meeting place. So, what, then? When 30-50 like-minded folks start to show up, must the home be the only alternative? Really? Church planting is just that. Seeds, that when watered by the Lord result in increase and the need for a facility to support the growth blessed by God.

A building is a pretty convenient thing to have. In many cases, it's not just a convenience, but a necessity. A place you never have to ask permission to access. A place you can have worship, Christian education, Bible study, prayer meeting, weddings, a study, a library, funerals, fellowship meetings, communal meals, storage. The church is made up of individuals and families of various means and incomes. On whom do these demands fall, when there's no building? Someone gives it up. Someone bears an associated cost.

The building is a means to the end of all the above, for the life of the members. It can even supply the lives of future members, whose resources can be put to other ends, for the fact they already have a building and it only requires maintenance. A building may attract new members (and potential donors) because they think this outfit has a future. "These people are thinking long-term."

If there is no building, we still have to get facilities to meet, to prepare food, to store the hymnals, etc. Banks are a modern invention. Apostle Paul had to devote resources and planning to collecting a fund, 1 Cor. 16:3; 2 Cor. 8:11,20. At some point, you have either to pay for keeping such a gift in a safe, or the church must have its own. Robert, you need to appreciate that the church is an organization that is found in the world, and our circumstances and our decisions about what to do and how to get along while we're here, while maintaining our institutional identity, lead us into choices about how best to do these things.

There are Christian groups that adopt a philosophical approach that is "minimalist," or some such. They are fine, I don't oppose them or resent them in principle. I don't think they ought to judge another group up the road, who have a nice-looking building and a well-kept lawn, as if they were, per you, Robert, "obviously less spiritually minded". The fact that it does happen just proves that it is not only those putting wealth on display who are pretentious. :AMR:

The Jews had synagogues (meeting in buildings) for centuries, before Christians basically formed a new synagogue. The same "biblical" and practical justifications for the former are still with us. We aren't in heaven yet.

The wrong priorities, misallocation of funds, investing holiness in some pile of brick, making people feel guilty for not giving more--these are just some of the abuses of financial and spiritual responsibility by which churches can err. But, I don't think one can criticize accurately the problems in any particular instance, until he's got some experience in handling similar responsibility.

AMR

Organized religion is a curse. Look at what it has produced in the last 50 years.

It is anti-Gospel and anti-Christ. You will not hear the Gospel preached in the organized church because they don't believe it. It was when organized religion decided to go on TV that it revealed itself for what it was, a sham and a way to extort millions of dollars out of ignorant people that were taken in by it. if you want the truth you will not find it in the organized church.

 

[God's Truth]

Jesus saves those he chooses to save.

He tells us who he chooses.

He saves those who believe and obey him.

All anyone needs is His written Word and a willing heart.

 

[God's Truth]

Rather, beware of the Lone Ranger type, who thinks all the words spent being superintended by God the Holy Spirit concerning the qualifications, duties, and ordination of servants of the Lord for the militant church were irrelevant and not needed. Yes, in its infancy the homes of the faithful served as a meeting place. So, what, then? When 30-50 like-minded folks start to show up, must the home be the only alternative? Really? Church planting is just that. Seeds, that when watered by the Lord result in increase and the need for a facility to support the growth blessed by God.

A building is a pretty convenient thing to have. In many cases, it's not just a convenience, but a necessity. A place you never have to ask permission to access. A place you can have worship, Christian education, Bible study, prayer meeting, weddings, a study, a library, funerals, fellowship meetings, communal meals, storage. The church is made up of individuals and families of various means and incomes. On whom do these demands fall, when there's no building? Someone gives it up. Someone bears an associated cost.

The building is a means to the end of all the above, for the life of the members. It can even supply the lives of future members, whose resources can be put to other ends, for the fact they already have a building and it only requires maintenance. A building may attract new members (and potential donors) because they think this outfit has a future. "These people are thinking long-term."

If there is no building, we still have to get facilities to meet, to prepare food, to store the hymnals, etc. Banks are a modern invention. Apostle Paul had to devote resources and planning to collecting a fund, 1 Cor. 16:3; 2 Cor. 8:11,20. At some point, you have either to pay for keeping such a gift in a safe, or the church must have its own. Robert, you need to appreciate that the church is an organization that is found in the world, and our circumstances and our decisions about what to do and how to get along while we're here, while maintaining our institutional identity, lead us into choices about how best to do these things.

There are Christian groups that adopt a philosophical approach that is "minimalist," or some such. They are fine, I don't oppose them or resent them in principle. I don't think they ought to judge another group up the road, who have a nice-looking building and a well-kept lawn, as if they were, per you, Robert, "obviously less spiritually minded". The fact that it does happen just proves that it is not only those putting wealth on display who are pretentious. :AMR:

The Jews had synagogues (meeting in buildings) for centuries, before Christians basically formed a new synagogue. The same "biblical" and practical justifications for the former are still with us. We aren't in heaven yet.

The wrong priorities, misallocation of funds, investing holiness in some pile of brick, making people feel guilty for not giving more--these are just some of the abuses of financial and spiritual responsibility by which churches can err. But, I don't think one can criticize accurately the problems in any particular instance, until he's got some experience in handling similar responsibility.

AMR

It is easy to see who is on the side of truth.

Robert Pate is not on the side of truth and neither are the Calvnists.

Those on the side of truth do right and come to the light.

Robert Pate teaches we believe and do not obey.

The Calvinists teach we do not have to obey or believe.

 

[Samie]

Jesus said, "Whosoever that believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" John 3:16.

Are you saying that Jesus that Jesus is a liar?

Nope.

The liars are those who preach against what Jesus Himself preached. He said that when NOT in Him, man can do NOTHING (John 15:5). But most preachers teach the exact opposite. They teach that people, while NOT in Christ - the ONLY source of power (1 Cor 1:24), can do SOMETHING - they can hear and believe.

Those that were saved in the new Testament were saved by hearing and believing the Gospel, Romans 10:17.

The verse you provided - Rom 10:17, does not say what you said it says:

KJV Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

We all were saved by God's grace through Christ.

KJV Ephesians 2:8-9 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

KJV 2 Timothy 1:9 [God] Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began

NAS Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men

It's by grace that God saved us through Christ. To be "saved by hearing and believing the Gospel" as you teach, is teaching salvation by works.

 

[Robert Pate]

Nope.

The liars are those who preach against what Jesus Himself preached. He said that when NOT in Him, man can do NOTHING (John 15:5). But most preachers teach the exact opposite. They teach that people, while NOT in Christ - the ONLY source of power (1 Cor 1:24), can do SOMETHING - they can hear and believe.

The verse you provided - Rom 10:17, does not say what you said it says:

KJV Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

We all were saved by God's grace through Christ.

KJV Ephesians 2:8-9 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

KJV 2 Timothy 1:9 [God] Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began

NAS Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men

It's by grace that God saved us through Christ. To be "saved by hearing and believing the Gospel" as you teach, is teaching salvation by works.

You don't know or understand the Gospel.

The Gospel is about how God justified the ungodly.

"But to him that does no works, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" Romans 4:5.

That should be the end of your religion. God justifies the ungodly through faith alone, no works or religion needed.

Here is another one that will wreck your religious day.

"God was in Christ, reconciling us and the world unto himself" 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.

All that is required of us is to accept the offer of reconciliation.

You can call hearing and believing the Gospel a work, but no one will be saved that does not hear and believe the Gospel. Over 8,000 Jews heard and believed Peter's Gospel and were saved, Acts 2:41 also Acts 4:4.

 

[Samie]

You don't know or understand the Gospel.

The Gospel is about how God justified the ungodly.

"But to him that does no works, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" Romans 4:5.

That should be the end of your religion. God justifies the ungodly through faith alone, no works or religion needed.

Here is another one that will wreck your religious day.

"God was in Christ, reconciling us and the world unto himself" 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.

All that is required of us is to accept the offer of reconciliation.

You can call hearing and believing the Gospel a work, but no one will be saved that does not hear and believe the Gospel. Over 8,000 Jews heard and believed Peter's Gospel and were saved, Acts 2:41 also Acts 4:4.

You are saying that UNLESS people believe first they could not be IN Christ, hence NOT saved.

That simply means you are saying that people have the power to do SOMETHING - believe - while yet NOT PLUGGED IN to Christ the ONLY Source of Power (1 Cor 1:24; Matt 28:18) and Who Himself said that when NOT in Him man can do NOTHING (John 15:5).

 

[Robert Pate]

You are saying that UNLESS people believe first they could not be IN Christ, hence NOT saved.

That simply means you are saying that people have the power to do SOMETHING - believe - while yet NOT PLUGGED IN to Christ the ONLY Source of Power (1 Cor 1:24; Matt 28:18) and Who Himself said that when NOT in Him man can do NOTHING (John 15:5).

The term "plugged into Christ" is foreign to the Bible.

All that is required to be saved is to hear and believe the Gospel, Romans 10:17.

 

[jsanford108]

And they are excellent reasons.

What a strange, archaic word is unbeliever. Google says its usage peaked in the 1820s.

Stuart

May I ask for a list of these reasons?

Also, if you are so big on researching word usage, "Atheist" shows a peak, highest peak, usage in 1801. So, what is your point there?

 

[jsanford108]

The religious do not believe that salvation is by faith alone.

False. AMR is religious. I bet he believes in faith alone doctrine, as established by Calvin. There are many religious people on TOL who are not Calvinists who believe in faith alone.

Catholicism is a works based religion. They cannot believe that Jesus saves to the uttermost, Hebrews 7:25. They believe that they are participants in their salvation.

How many times must I educate you, Pate? Catholicism is not works based. It is faith based. Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 144,150-151:
144: "To obey (from the Latin ob-audire, to "hear or listen to") in faith is to submit freely to the word that has been heard, because its truth is guaranteed by God, who is Truth itself. Abraham is the model of such obedience offered us by Sacred Scripture. The Virgin Mary is its most perfect embodiment."
150: "Faith is first of all a personal adherence of man to God. At the same time, and inseparably, it is a free assent to the whole truth that God has revealed. As personal adherence to God and assent to his truth, Christian faith differs from our faith in any human person. It is right and just to entrust oneself wholly to God and to believe absolutely what he says. It would be futile and false to place such faith in a creature."
151: For a Christian, believing in God cannot be separated from believing in the One he sent, his "beloved Son", in whom the Father is "well pleased"; God tells us to listen to him.18 The Lord himself said to his disciples: "Believe in God, believe also in me." We can believe in Jesus Christ because he is himself God, the Word made flesh: "No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known." Because he "has seen the Father", Jesus Christ is the only one who knows him and can reveal him."

Also, if you do not believe that you "participate in salvation," then you must be lost. Because Christ says "take up your cross and follow me." (Matthew 16) This is an implicit call to active participation, led by faith.

The early church met in each others homes. organized religion and the "Historical Gospel" are not compatible.

The early church met in homes due to being persecuted. Yet, they still "gathered together in one place." That is the purpose of a "church."

And yes, organized religion and the "Historical Gospel" are not compatible. You did get that point right. (I am assuming you are referencing to ideas such as the Jesus Seminar, founded by Robert Funk/John Crossan, and the writings of Richard B. Hayes, etc.)

Organized religion is a curse. Look at what it has produced in the last 50 years.

if you want the truth you will not find it in the organized church.

Yes, to produce the Canonical Bible, charities, missionaries, etc. must be the merits of a curse.

 

[Robert Pate]

False. AMR is religious. I bet he believes in faith alone doctrine, as established by Calvin. There are many religious people on TOL who are not Calvinists who believe in faith alone.

How many times must I educate you, Pate? Catholicism is not works based. It is faith based. Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 144,150-151:
144: "To obey (from the Latin ob-audire, to "hear or listen to") in faith is to submit freely to the word that has been heard, because its truth is guaranteed by God, who is Truth itself. Abraham is the model of such obedience offered us by Sacred Scripture. The Virgin Mary is its most perfect embodiment."
150: "Faith is first of all a personal adherence of man to God. At the same time, and inseparably, it is a free assent to the whole truth that God has revealed. As personal adherence to God and assent to his truth, Christian faith differs from our faith in any human person. It is right and just to entrust oneself wholly to God and to believe absolutely what he says. It would be futile and false to place such faith in a creature."
151: For a Christian, believing in God cannot be separated from believing in the One he sent, his "beloved Son", in whom the Father is "well pleased"; God tells us to listen to him.18 The Lord himself said to his disciples: "Believe in God, believe also in me." We can believe in Jesus Christ because he is himself God, the Word made flesh: "No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known." Because he "has seen the Father", Jesus Christ is the only one who knows him and can reveal him."

Also, if you do not believe that you "participate in salvation," then you must be lost. Because Christ says "take up your cross and follow me." (Matthew 16) This is an implicit call to active participation, led by faith.

The early church met in homes due to being persecuted. Yet, they still "gathered together in one place." That is the purpose of a "church."

And yes, organized religion and the "Historical Gospel" are not compatible. You did get that point right. (I am assuming you are referencing to ideas such as the Jesus Seminar, founded by Robert Funk/John Crossan, and the writings of Richard B. Hayes, etc.)

Yes, to produce the Canonical Bible, charities, missionaries, etc. must be the merits of a curse.

Faith alone means just what it says. No laws, no rules, no religion. Now any fool knows that Catholicism is NOT faith alone. Becoming a member of the Catholic church requires that you do and continuously practice many ceremonious works. You must, you must, you must and if you don't you are anathema. You must maintain your salvation. Some Catholics must take the sacraments several times a day or they don't feel saved.

In the Gospel we are saved and justified by a one time event. We don't have to maintain our salvation, we rest in what Christ has accomplished for us, Hebrews 4:10. This is why we are justified by faith alone.